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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I currently have the 56TXI and Odyssey HT-3 150W x 3 external amp for my front three channels. I'm considering either buying the 74TXVi to replace the 56TXi (which I would sell), or selling both the 56TXi and HT-3 amp and buying the 4806 using its internal amps. The Denon will be a little more money, even though I'm getting a "one time" deal at 30% off retail. The 74TXVi I also will be getting just about 30% discount (I think like 27% off retail).


Before anyone suggests it, keeping the HT-3 with the Denon 4806 is not an option, as there is no way I could afford to keep both, no way!. Buying the 4806 over the 74TXVi/HT-3 combo would cost me about an extra $400-$500 or so after discounts etc...


I'm driving VS LCR-15's up front (8 Ohm, 87.5dB sensitivity), which may be replaced with ACI Protege's (6 Ohm, 86dB).


My listening preferences are about 50% music (priority), and 50% movies. Listening levels are definately not close to reference level. Sometimes I crank it for a movie, but not often.


Any thoughts???


Thanks and Best Regards,

Patrick
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by avaholic
I currently have the 56TXI and Odyssey HT-3 150W x 3 external amp for my front three channels. I'm considering either buying the 74TXVi to replace the 56TXi (which I would sell), or selling both the 56TXi and HT-3 amp and buying the 4806 using its internal amps. The Denon will be a little more money, even though I'm getting a "one time" deal at 30% off retail. The 74TXVi I also will be getting just about 30% discount (I think like 27% off retail).


Before anyone suggests it, keeping the HT-3 with the Denon 4806 is not an option, as there is no way I could afford to keep both, no way!. Buying the 4806 over the 74TXVi/HT-3 combo would cost me about an extra $400-$500 or so after dicounts etc...


I'm driving VS LCR-15's up front (8 Ohm, 87.5dB sensitivity), which may be replaced with ACI Protege's (6 Ohm, 86dB).


My listening preferences are about 50% music (priority), and 50% movies. Listening levels are definately not close to reference level. Sometimes I crank it for a movie, but not often.


Any thoughts???


Thanks, Best Regards,

Patrick
Do you need the extra connectivity of the 4806,

3- HDMI inputs vs 2 for the 74

4- component inputs vs 3

More digital audio inputs

DenonLink3


Denon/Audyssey has gotten their act together on the 5805 with their lastest update to Audyssey, which now performs beyond my expectations!

Big plus for Denon but I haven't heard the 74's MCACC.


Build quality is also a big plus for the Denon compared to the cheaper (apparent) build of the 74.


Keeping your amps is a plus for the 74 setup.


BTW.... keep your VS LCR-15's (great speaker!)


dc
 

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Just going by the initial reports that have been made so far about the 74TXVi, and nothing else. It appears that the Denon 4806 most definitely might be the better build quality of the two, and that it possibly will be a bit stronger in it's amp section than the Pioneer. But they are also really two different "levels" of AVR's, and the price differences between them reflects that.
 

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Getting rid of the Odyssey for current limiting A/V receiver amplification will be a let down. You may want to hold out for some more info on the 74 and the upcoming AVR-4306. I will have the 74TXVi at the end of August and Ill give you the heads up on the 56/74/4306/4806 comparison in my personal reference system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCatcher
Do you need the extra connectivity of the 4806,

3- HDMI inputs vs 2 for the 74

4- component inputs vs 3

More digital audio inputs

DenonLink3
dc,


I definately don't need the extra connectivity of the 4806.


I agree with you and Johnla, that the Denon looks like the better built of the two. I'm pretty sure the Denon amps/power supply section is much better than the 74TXVi, but I'm pretty sure it is not as good as the Odyssey HT-3 seperate amp.


I know both the 4806 and HT-3 will be able to supply ample power for my system (at least I know the HT-3 does), I guess it comes down to which Pre/Pro section is better the 4806 or the 74TXVi? If the 4806 is better in that regard, will it be $400-$500 better? My main concern here is music, as I know they both will be fine with movies.


Unfortunately, I don't have the advantage of doing a demo on one or both. Because I'm getting such great deals, there is no return (unless it's defective or damaged) from the respective dealers. And yes the dealers are authorized.


The easiest thing to do is buy the 74TXVi for sure, because I'd save $400-500, and I would not have to deal with selling my HT-3 amp. But if the Denon 4806 is really going to sound alot better for music then I'd go that route. I definately don't want to take a "step back" from my current setup with regards to music playback.


Also, I have heard that Pioneer DVD players work with Denon via i.Link, but I hear that the clock sync (Pioneers PLQS) does not work when used with another brand. Would this be a potential problem in relation to jitter if I go with the 4806?? I definately want to continue using i.Link, and I don't want to have to buy another player right now. I love my Elite 47Ai! This may play into the decision I guess as well, because using i.Link means I use the DAC section in the AVR (currently the 56TXi), and that also means I will be using the DACs in either the 74TXVi or the 4806. Another question would be would either the 74TXVi or the 4806 be a significant upgrade from the 56TXi in regards to being used as a pre/pro for music/movies? I personally like the fact that both have room correction for the sub and have a surround mode for headphone use. The 56TXi has neither. I'm not too concerned about HDMI right now, as I don't use it.


BTW, I will not be adding an external amp later if I buy the 4806, too much $$$


Thanks for all the help so far.


Best Regards,

Patrick
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Grooms
Getting rid of the Odyssey for current limiting A/V receiver amplification will be a let down. You may want to hold out for some more info on the 74 and the upcoming AVR-4306. I will have the 74TXVi at the end of August and Ill give you the heads up on the 56/74/4306/4806 comparison in my personal reference system.
Excellent Tom! The current limited amps in the 4806 are definately a concern.

That would be great if I could get your thoughts on the comparison of those AVRs!


Like I just said in my last post (I was writing while you were posting), the main things I see as an upgrade with either the 74TXVi or the 4806 over the 56TXi is the room correction for the subwoofer signal and the surround headphone mode (with kids I have to watch some movies with headphones). However, if music playback overall is not significantly improved, I'm not sure it would be worth the upgrade. Though, as it stands with the discount I can get on the 74TXVi and what I could sell the 56TXi for used, I'll probably only be out $200-$300 bucks max. if I upgrade to the 74TXVi. And though I don't need HDMI right now, it would be a bonus to have it available in the future!


Thanks,

Patrick
 

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We really don't know yet for sure if the 74's MCACC has a postive (or any) effect on bass frequencies below around 63hz, do we?


Regarding current limiting amps of the 4806.... really? Are there professional reviews out that comment on this?


Anyway if you don't need the extra connectivity of the 4806, then the 74 (or maybe the 4306) might make more sense for you. The 4806 DACs aren't anything spectacular, same as the 3805, so unless you're ready to move up to something with better DACs, etc.... (like the 5805) then you probably won't hear much difference between the two units as long as their EQ systems are comparable.


dc
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCatcher
Regarding current limiting amps of the 4806.... really? Are there professional reviews out that comment on this?
All A/V receivers are current limiting. The simple test it to cross the speaker leads and create a dead short which will put the receiver into "protection" mode (current limiting). Do that with a big ass power amp and you will snap a fuse or smoke an output device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCatcher
The 4806 DACs aren't anything spectacular, same as the 3805, so unless you're ready to move up to something with better DACs, etc.... (like the 5805) then you probably won't hear much difference between the two units as long as their EQ systems are comparable.?
IMO, the analog section is far more important that the DAC chipset. The difference between the BB-1791 and 1792 may look good on paper but a well designed analog section will make a bigger impact on your audio presentation.



avaholic, I have both the 4806 and 56TXi in my home now. I drive my two rear channels (5.1) with receiver power and the front three with a Monster MPA 3250-SS. ;) The 56TXi has been in my home for over 8 months and is a great piece for decoding DD/DTS material. For two channel music, I have an inexpensive two channel preamp that is worlds above both the 4806 and the 56TXi. If two channel listening is your priority, try that route. Now with multichannel SACD and DVD-A, I really like the 4806. I run it in direct mode with no extra processing except channel level and time alignment (MultiQ off). For movies and concert DVDs I let MultiQ do its thing. The 4806 is a nice piece but I dont feel it was a big upgrade from the 56TXi.
 

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Tom, Have you tried that current limiting trick with your Monster amps :eek:


I think you may be confusing current limiting with protection circuitry :)

Besides I don't think I want something connected to my speakers that would rather fry them then protect them.


Also everything else being equal, better DACs will equal better sound. A good analog section can make lesser DACs sound very good but that same analog section will sound better with better DACs.


dc
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Grooms
The 56TXi has been in my home for over 8 months and is a great piece for decoding DD/DTS material. For two channel music, I have an inexpensive two channel preamp that is worlds above both the 4806 and the 56TXi. If two channel listening is your priority, try that route.


The 4806 is a nice piece but I dont feel it was a big upgrade from the 56TXi.
Tom,


Thanks allot for your input. I do allot of 2 channel and Multi-channel music listening. Using the 47Ai and 56TXi via i.Link makes it very convienent to do so, and with very good results. So with the seperate 2-ch preamp I'm assume you are using the analog outs of your CD/DVD player to the inputs of the preamp and then to your amp directly?? Or do you take the preamp output of the AVR and connect it to your seperate 2-channel preamp?

How inexpensive is this preamp, and what is the model?


In anycase, it looks like it might not be a big enough upgade for me to go with the 4806. I guess I'll need to decide if the 74TXVi is worth it (and just how important it is to me) to get the surround mode for headphones, and to get some type of room correction for the bass freq. ("Standing Wave" correction). I guess Monty Williams said it had a very positive impact on the overall sound, with much more "even bass", that was "less boomy". But it's true it has not been confirmed that it corrects anything under 63Hz though! The 74TXVi also has 4 more bands of EQ than the 56TXi (with 4 more presets, for a total of 6) and also adds the X-curve adjustment (and of course HDMI and XM radio, both of which I will not be using any time real soon).


I agree that DACs are not necessarily the most important component with regards to music/audio reproduction, as I know the Opamp section plays a huge part as well (maybe even more as Tom said). I'm guessing that the DAC and OpAmp sections of the 74TXVi will be of at least similar quality to the 56TXi (at least I hope so). I asked the question in another thread if anyone knew the differences between the 56TXi and 74TXVi DAC and Opamp sections, but have yet to receive an answer.


Thanks for the input so far it has been a real help!


Best Regards,

Patrick
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by avaholic
Tom,


I'm assume you are using the analog outs of your CD/DVD player to the inputs of the preamp and then to your amp directly?? How inexpensive is this preamp, and what is the model?
You got it! The receiver preamp outputs from the front right and left are fed into the two channel preamp inputs and volume controls are bypassed (HT passthrough). Its the hot set-up for multipurpose systems. Im a preamp junkie, I have about 5-6 laying around over here. Currently Im using a PS-Audio GCP-200. The Rogue Audio 99 Magnum (tubes) is also a very nice piece. Check Audiogon for a good deal on preamps. You can find something really good for well under $1000
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Grooms
You got it! The receiver preamp outputs from the front right and left are fed into the two channel preamp inputs and volume controls are bypassed (HT passthrough). Its the hot set-up for multipurpose systems. Im a preamp junkie, I have about 5-6 laying around over here. Currently Im using a PS-Audio GCP-200. The Rogue Audio 99 Magnum (tubes) is also a very nice piece. Check Audiogon for a good deal on preamps. You can find something really good for well under $1000
Tom,


That's kind of what I thought. I'd love to be able to go that route, but considering my very tight $$ budget, it's just not an option. So, I am going to stick with either the 56TXi or jump to the 74TXVi, using my Odyssey HT-3 to power the front three speakers and the internal amps for the rears in my 5.1 setup. Besides the fact I can't afford a seperate 2-ch preamp, I like the idea of using the i.Link connection as a one connection for all formats solution.


I just wish I knew for sure if the DAC and OpAmp sections of the 74TXVi were at least as good as the 56TXi.


Best Regards,

Patrick
 

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Let me be clear on my configuration. I have a Denon DVD-3910 DVD player. Video is sent straight to my display device via HDMI. The two channel analog audio outputs are ran to my two channel preamp and i-link is ran to my receiver. I dont turn on the receiver to listen to two channel music, it stays off. When I want to go multichannel, I just change inputs on my two channel preamp, fire up the receiver and Im listening to MC music and DVDs. If your trying to improve two channel performance, the preamp is the way to go. For less than $1000 you can make great strides. To make a big leap in MC music and DVD performance, I dont see it happening with the 74, 4306 or even the 4806 unless you have big room problems or a set-up challenge in regards to loudspeaker placement in which case MultiQ may provide a benefit.


$0.02
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Grooms
The two channel analog audio outputs are ran to my two channel preamp and i-link is ran to my receiver. I dont turn on the receiver to listen to two channel music, it stays off. When I want to go multichannel, I just change inputs on my two channel preamp, fire up the receiver and Im listening to MC music and DVDs.
Hi Tom,

Not to change the direction of this thread too much, have you noticed any degradation in sound quality doing the above? I have an ARC tube preamp with HT "bypass" which is really unity gain and a Pio 59TXi for HT and MC music along with a 2 ch amp for the fronts. I also use Ilink to the rec. and the analog outs to the tube preamp. So far, I have refrained from interconnecting the 59 with the ARC since the ARC's HT processor bypass actually is sent thru the tube preamp, not a passive bypass. What I do is change the amp cables back & forth between the preamp and the receiver preamp outs. BUT this is getting to be a bit of a pain. I didn't know if daisy chaining preamps would result in any noticeable degradation. What's your experience?


ss9001
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Tom,


Completely understood. And I figured your setup was something like that.

I should be more clear in my hopes here.


First of all, I don't want to spend more than $400-$500 on any "upgrade" at this point.


I really like the way my 2-channel and Multi-channel/DVD setup sounds as it is, for "the most part". A very important point here is I have a very troubled room as far as ecoustics go (up and down the freq. spectrum). I don't have have allot of room for professional room treatments, so I do the best I can with carpet, drapes, etc., but when I am working with one corner of a huge "Great room" as a starting place with vaulted ceilings, I have big problems to overcome. Just an example the front right speaker is a foot from the right wall, and my left speaker has no wall at all next to it (you get the idea, my room sucks! :( ). But I've been using the 55TXi and 56TXi for the past three years with great success though, do to what MCACC room correction does for my problem room. So even for 2-channel music the ability to engage room correction is a must. So you might think why change a good thing, just stick with my current setup?

First of all, I like the idea of some room correction for the subwoofer. I currently use a BFD setup manually, and it works fairly well, but I'd like to get a little better if I could. If Pioneers new "Standing Wave" correction can help me get there, I'm interested. Which is also the reason I was interested in the 4806 due to it's MultiEQ. Ultimately, I still may have to get the Velo SMS-1 when it comes out.


Also, the new 74TXVi has 9 bands of EQ compared to the 5 of the 56TXi. My guess is that would help my troubled room out even more. Then the other factor is as I've stated, I'd like to have some surround processing for headphone use, which the 74TXVi has, and the 56TXi does not (not the biggest deal, but still a factor). Throw in the fact that the 74TXVi has HDMI 1.1, which even though I don't need it right now, will probably come in handy in the future. The only thing I'm wary about with the 74TXVi is the DAC and OpAmp section right now because it apparently is not built as well as the 56TXi. While I am happy with music performance now, I don't want to take a "step back" in this regard even though I may be getting the better MCACC room correction and surround headphone mode.


To help understand my very problematic room, here is a couple of pictures. Notice another acoustic problem I have is my front 3 LCR speakers are mounted in a cabinet. Far from ideal I know, but it's what I have to deal with (and when it cost $3500, the AV cabinet is not going anywhere). The funny thing is you would be very suprised how good it actually sounds.


Anyway, thanks for all your input and here is a couple of pics of the room and entertainment center. (this is with my old Phase Tech. speakers installed not the VS LCR-15's):


Best Regards,

Patrick


http://img174.exs.cx/img174/8103/img12202ao.jpg

http://img174.exs.cx/img174/6273/img12117vu.jpg
 

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I don't like to run unity gain bypass tube preamps in the big system. Not that is sounds bad (and it would add its signature) but I watch a fair amount of TV and my 12yr old plays a lot of X-Box. Tube life would be to short in my system so I only run SS down there. The only preamps I have had in the big system were the Plinius, PS-Audio and a SS BAT. ZERO degradation in sound quality. Hook up the ARC and try it but be warned on tube life if you play a lot. I bet you will like it and it gonna be a lot easier than cable swapping.


Now back to your regularly scheduled programing, already in progress
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Tom,


I noticed you posted right after my last post, and may not have seen it. So if not, please look at my most recent post above.


Thanks,

Patrick
 

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Partick, I would try to demo the 4806 or wait until the 4306 comes out. From that picture, I gather you do have some challenges. MultiQ would be nice in that room and I cant imagine Pioneers new MCACC would work as well as the Audyseey solution. You can see our speaker placement is very different. ;) Lot of changes since this pic but you get the idea
http://webpages.charter.net/tgrooms/...ght%20side.JPG
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Tom,


Thanks for the advice. Yeah, my room and setup conditions suck. But like I said the Pioneer MCACC works wonders, to be honest I could not believe the improvement when I first got the 55TXi a few years ago, and the 56TXi is better yet.


I'll definately consider the 4306, I don't think I want to go for the 4806, just because I'd have to sell my HT-3 amp. Any idea when the 4306 is due out? I'm also still a little hesitant about going with the Denon's because of lack of "clock sync" (no PLQS) with my 47Ai using i.Link.


Nice room you have there, obviously much better conditions for audio/movie playback!


Thanks again,

Patrick
 
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