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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Having a Denon 5800 and a Pioneer47-A a which plays DVD -Audio and SACD does it make sense buying an Outlaw ICBM? I know it will do Bass Management for the DVD-Audio and SACD but will it better the Bass Management on Digital inputs? Will it get me a better Bass response than the 5800 in a normal situation(DD and DTS)?
 

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Rather than buying an ICBM and a bunch of cables, wouldn't it be better to upgrade the 5800 to a 5803? That way you get built in bass management and a bunch of other great features (such as DPL II).


Mike
 

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I’m going to jump in here because I have a question that MAY relate to the 5803’s bass management (especially because I don’t really know what that is).


I’ve been messing around with a Denon 3800 DVD-Audio player and a Denon AVR 5803 receiver. A fiber optic cable connects the DVD-Audio player to one of the 5803’s digital optical input. Six analog audio cables connect the DVD-Audio player to the 5803’s “ext-1†inputs.


The 5803 is connected to left and right mains and a center. The “Pre-Out†connector labeled “SW†is connected to “decoder†input of a B&W ASW4000 subwoofer.


There are menu settings at both ends that appear relevant.


I setup the DVD player so that it outputs analog signals derived from high resolution DVD-Audio data over the analog audio cables.


On the 5803, I can configure the Ext-1 inputs to either be “analog†or “DSPâ€. The latter, I presume, uses the 5803’s A/D conversion circuits in order to convert the six analog inputs into digital streams, process them as desired, and then convert them back to analog for distribution to the speakers.


When I select “analogâ€, I don’t hear any bass on the subwoofer - even when the DVD-Player is generating a test tone that is supposed to be heard only on the SW. I’ve checked the analog SW cable.


When I select “DSPâ€, I hear lots of bass from the SW.


My gut tells me that It would be best if I just played the analog signal without converting it to digital and then back to analog.


Why don’t I hear any bass with “analog� What am I doing wrong?


Thanks,


Joe.
 

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eetrojan,


This does sound odd. Try temporarily hooking the SW directly to the 3800. This should tell you if the problem originates with the 3800 or the 5803. Are you using the 3800's bass management? This should not matter for the test tone, but would for actual DVD-A material.
 

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Quote:
Try temporarily hooking the SW directly to the 3800. This should tell you if the problem originates with the 3800 or the 5803.
Great idea. With the 3800 hooked directly to the SW, its test tone comes through loud and clear on the SW. It's definitely not the 3800. I also tried hooking all six analog cables to the 5803's EXT-2 input. Same thing. I hear left, center and right test tones, but no SW when trying to pass the test tones through the 5803.

Quote:
Are you using the 3800's bass management? This should not matter for the test tone, but would for actual DVD-A material.
If by bass management, you mean its relative multichannel signal levels, the answer is yes and no. I have left them all at 0dB.


Thanks for the input! If I solve it, I'll post how. It will probably embarass me... ;)


Joe.
 

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Somebody shoot me.


You could in fact use speakers that can reproduce the full audio spectrum from 20 Hz to 20 KHz and make sure that all of them are equidistant from your listening position.


Naw, I guess you need an ICBM. :)
 

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Quote:
Somebody shoot me.


You could in fact use speakers that can reproduce the full audio spectrum from 20 Hz to 20 KHz and make sure that all of them are equidistant from your listening position.


Naw, I guess you need an ICBM.
So, does "bass management" imply that you're using satellites with a subwoofer?


I'm really naive. What exactly is bass management? And, when do you need it and not need it?
 

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eetrojan,


Bass management allows you to redirect bass frequencies to the SW which can handle them better. The speaker settings of small/large is what activates this.


It is strange that the 5803 is not passing the SW info through in direct (analog) mode.
 

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I solved it and, as predicted, I am embarrassed.


The problem was that when passing the multi-channel signals over six analog cables to the multi-channel “EXT-1†inputs on my Denon 5803 receiver, I wasn’t hearing any bass out of the subwoofer. The subwoofer would not even output the test tone generated on the SW line by my Denon 3800 DVD player.


The problem was not in the 3800, the 5803, or the cabling.


As it turns out, the “problem†is my subwoofer, a B&W ASW4000.


My SW has three flavors of inputs, L&R line level inputs, L&R speaker level inputs, and a single “dedicated decoder input.†I’m using the decoder input as the 5803 has a single SW output. According to the SW’s manual:


“If no signal is detected on the decoder input for approximately 20 seconds, the subwoofer will switch to the line/speaker level inputsâ€


My “problemâ€, in other words, was not amplifying the SW signal to a level that would switch on the SW’s decoder input.


I guess I need to listen to things a bit louder...


What a waste of time that was....
 

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Quote:
If no signal is detected on the decoder input for approximately 20 seconds, the subwoofer will switch to the line/speaker level inputs
Oh man, I hate **** like that. There are times when auto detect is a real pain in the....
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Sargent
Rather than buying an ICBM and a bunch of cables, wouldn't it be better to upgrade the 5800 to a 5803? That way you get built in bass management and a bunch of other great features (such as DPL II).


Mike


Maybe, but the Denon upgrade is $800 vs. an ICBM $250. I have an ICBM and it a must if you have an SACD or DVD-A player. Also, its debateable if DPL-2 is a great feature. You need to be very careful about sending in your receiver for an upgrade, unless you can drive to Denon yourself and deliver it.
 

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I have the Denon 5803 and if it has bass management for the external inputs for DVD-A/SACD, then would someone be kind enough to point it out for me? I can hardly stand to listen to DVD-A on my system because it sounds like a full range signal is being sent to my sub. BTW, all my speakers are set to small in both the 5803 setup and my Kenwood DV-5900M setup. I may need the ICBM as well to fix this problem if I ever purchase more DVD-A disks.


Ken
 

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Quote:
it sounds like a full range signal is being sent to my sub.
A few discs have 6 full range channels. (Telarc, Chesky, MDG).
Quote:
all my speakers are set to small in both the 5803 setup and my Kenwood DV-5900M setup.
If you plan to use the 5803 bass management, do not use the BM in the 5900M. Cascading filters can cause weird effects.
 

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Bass mgt. in sacd & DVD-A players needs to be a function in the player only. Most electronics do bass mgt. in the digital domain & SACD & DVD-A don't have digital links for the high-res formats (only for DD,DTS & CD) So analog out of these players is the only hi-res signal & require something like the icbm to do bass mgt. in the analog domain. If the reciever can do bass mgt. from it's analog ins then it usually reconverts it to digital (@ lower res) processes the bass mgt & reconverts to analog. Not a good practice!
 

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Craig F,


The disk I was refering to happens to be Telarc's new DVD-A of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. Your comment would expain the high frequencies in the sub channel. As far as the speakers being set to small on the 5803, I really doubt that would have any influence on the sound since those settings only seem to affect the digital inputs.


Ken
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Will I have a better bass management with the 5800+ICBM or the 5803 standalone? This will settle all my doubts, as no more alternatives are contemplated in my particular situation.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by hhiggins

If the reciever can do bass mgt. from it's analog ins then it usually reconverts it to digital (@ lower res) processes the bass mgt & reconverts to analog. Not a good practice! [/b]
Is this true even if a receiver has high quality 24/192 dacs?
 

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I figured there are a lot of people out there who understand "bass management", but don't have hands on knowledge of the Denon 5803. So, I took pictures of the setup screens on my Denon 5803 so that you smarter people can tell me whether or not this is "bass management" and, just as importantly, whether or not I'm using it correctly.


By pressing "System Setup" I get the following screen:

http://www.teamandras.com/temp/DSC00064.jpg


If I select "Speaker Configuration" as highlighted above, then I can set my front and center speakers to "small" or "large" and tell the system that "Yes", I have subwoofer.


If I select "small", it looks like this:
http://www.teamandras.com/temp/DSC00065.jpg


If I select "large", it looks like this:
http://www.teamandras.com/temp/DSC00072.jpg


If I selected "small" and press enter, I get one more option. In particular, I get to set the "crossover frequency" for the subwoofer. I can select one of the "variable" frequencies of 40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz or 120Hz or I can select "FIXED THX" (which is apparently the same as 80Hz). Here's a photo of the 40Hz and "FIXED THX" settings:

http://www.teamandras.com/temp/DSC00066.jpg
http://www.teamandras.com/temp/DSC00071.jpg


If I selected "large" and pressed enter, I don't get just one option, I get two. First, I get to set the "crossover frequency" (as above). Second, I also get to ask that the low frequency be delivered only to the subwoofer ("LFE -THX") or to both the subwoofer and the main speakers ("LFE +Main"):
http://www.teamandras.com/temp/DSC00073.jpg


When I play a standard CD that is input to the 5803 over a digital optical cable, I hear a dramatic difference by moving the crossover from 40Hz (no bass output from the SW) to 120Hz (lots of bass output from the SW). This is true regardless of whether or not I have selected "small" or "large" (I'm inclined to select "large" since I have full range mains).


I presume this is the "bass management" that folks are talking about. If it's not, please explain. Please also comment on how it differs from something like the "ICBM".


Now, on to DVD-Audio disks. I tried to change settings while playing "Al Green Greatest Hits" by Hi Records. According to the DVD player, it's a 48kHz/24bit recording.


The DVD-Audio is output over six analog lines to the "Ext.In-2" input on the 5803. I can setup the Ext.In-2 input from the setup screen as follows:
http://www.teamandras.com/temp/DSC00074.jpg


After that, I can either set the Ext.In-2 input to "analog" or "DSP" as follows:
http://www.teamandras.com/temp/DSC00075.jpg
http://www.teamandras.com/temp/DSC00076.jpg


If I select "analog", I hear absolutely no bass from the SW regardless of my selected "crossover frequency." If I select "DSP", I hear lots of bass and it varies as a function of my selected "crossover frequency".


It seems goofy to temporarily convert the signal back to digital so that I hear some bass on the SW. Maybe it doesn't matter so long as the 5803 has "high quality 24/192 dacs" as suggested by hifialan. Who's right?


Is this a lack of "bass management"? Do I need an ICBM?


Thanks!


Joe (eetrojan)
 

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I will try and give some more detail and hopefully clarify a few things.


Ken,


In regards to Telarc, the 6th channel is an "optional" height channel. Telarc claims it will sound fine in a normal 5.1 setup.


The 5803 allows the analog inputs to be redigitized so that the BM and Time Alignment can be applied. If TA is not very critical and 100Hz crossover works well for you, I'd suggest using the BM in the player. But doesn't hurt to try both ways to see what sounds better to you.

Quote:
hifialan asks:


Is this true even if a receiver has high quality 24/192 dacs?
Multiple A/D, D/A conversions will degrade the signal. How much one extra conversion degrades is a subject of some debate. The main reason the signal degrades is this. There is no way to sychronize the ADC (analog to digital converter) so that it samples at the same place in the signal where the original sample was. So you will not be sampling "real" data. The more conversions you do, the farther you get from the original signal.


eetrojan,


The small/large settings are the BM settings. Setting a speaker to large means it stays full range. Small means that frequencies below the selected crossover point will be redirected to the SW. I would assume that the crossover setting under "large" is what applies to other speakers that are set to small. You are also correct THX uses 80Hz. Any THX mode you activate on the receiver will use 80Hz regardless of this setting. (required for THX certification)

The rest of the pics didn't come thru.
 
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