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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Crutchfield site has some good specs on the forthcoming Denon 5900 DVD player with DVI and Faroudja DCDi Chip.


- Due on 10.24.03 a week before Halloween.

- DVI is probably disabled (can be enabled in the future).

- Uses Faroudja DCDi Chip

- Upconverters to 720p or 1080i only through the DVI connector

- MSRP $1999.99

- Nice photos of unit and connectors included


Everyone waiting for a DVI, upconverting to HD, and Faroudja DCDi equipped DVD player, this is not the one.


With DVI connector disabled that is $2000.00 wasted.

Half-assed hardware at a premium.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Fergy
Not true. DVI will be enabled when the HDCP protocol is finalized.
If HDCP is not finalized, what does that mean for all of the HDCP-capable displays that are being sold? Do all of these devices come with some sort of software/firmware update capability?


Mike
 

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I think it is more a matter of Denon working out compatibility issues


there is a master thread that covers
DVI compatibility issues


some of these devices can be updated with software/firmware fixes
 

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Could someone please explain to me the magic of upconverting 480p to 720p or 1080i? It is rather obvious that useful information cannot be added to the signal no matter how wonderful and expensive the hardware and upconverting algorithms are. So what is actually being "improved" by upconverting?


Andrzej
 

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there is no magic-


in some cases the upconversion from the DVI-HDCP looks better than what the display can produce-


this is a primer for the next generation of HD DVD to come
 

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Using a scaler, like the NRS or Digital Leeza, gives a better result than using a panel's internal scaler. DVD's on my 503 look almost as good as HD, and that's 480i being "up scaled" by my NRS to 1280 x 768.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Boden
Using a scaler, like the NRS or Digital Leeza, gives a better result than using a panel's internal scaler. DVD's on my 503 look almost as good as HD, and that's 480i being "up scaled" by my NRS to 1280 x 768.
Jim, I know that you are right. But I was asking how this is possible. A DVD or SD signal carries much less information about the picture than HD signal. Upconversion cannot create any additional detail about the picture. So why does it look better?


Andrzej
 

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I think it comes down to the fact that on a fixed pixel display something has to be doing the scaling. If you have a CRT based display that will display 480p then no you wouldn't want something doing this scaling. However, if your display is 1280x768 it comes down to do you want to feed the panel the 480(i or p) and have it do the de-interlacing/scaling. Or do you want the DVD player or as Jim has the Digital Leeza. I can imagine the panel would do the worst job, the DVD Hopefully better, and the outboard scaler the best. But it comes down to something having to do the scaling. Its not the scaled picture being better - it is which scaling is not the worst.
 

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Stealthfighter


The Denon DVD-5900 has a propriatery digital audio connection to a Denon receiver. Nearly all SACD/DD Audio players send 6 channel audio over 6 analog cables (yuck!) and many have base-management issues for such signals.

I would not buy any 6-channel audio gear until the new digital-audio HDMI products are available (supposedly next year). I took several years (!) to resolve that issue (since SACD and DD Audio came out).


Mike
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andrzej
Jim, I know that you are right. But I was asking how this is possible. A DVD or SD signal carries much less information about the picture than HD signal. Upconversion cannot create any additional detail about the picture. So why does it look better?


Andrzej
I am almost sure that high level scalers can add information by recognizing patterns in the picture frame. If you have a two line (2x7) pattern as follows


XX00000

XXXX000


you can create twice (in each axis) higher resolution version (5x14)


XXXX0000000000

XXXXX000000000

XXXXXX00000000

XXXXXXXX000000


A real TV picture would not be that simple but the concept still applies.


It is relatively easy to check code of dScaler since it is publicly available.


Will
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by will792
I am almost sure that high level scalers can add information by recognizing patterns in the picture frame. If you have a two line (2x7) pattern as follows


XX00000

XXXX000


you can create twice (in each axis) higher resolution version (5x14)


XXXX0000000000

XXXXX000000000

XXXXXX00000000

XXXXXXXX000000


A real TV picture would not be that simple but the concept still applies.


It is relatively easy to check code of dScaler since it is publicly available.


Will
Sorry Will but your example shows simple interpolation not adding more information. Using your line example a new information is added if something like this happens:


Initial information:


XX0000000000

XXXXX0000000


Added information (i.e., added detail):


XX0000000000 - same is the 1st line above

XXXX00000000

XXX000000000

XXXXX0000000 - same as the 2nd line above


You see my point?


Andrzej
 

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I think that will792's point is that a stupid scaler might take


XX00000

XXXX000


and produce


XX00000

XX00000

XXXX000

XXXX000


i.e. just copy enough lines to get to NR. I doubt there are many scalers that are that dumb, but the smarter the scaler, the fewer noticable artifacts it should produce.
 

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Andrzej,


Interpolation is adding details based on the existing information.


If there is a black box on white background in 640x480 resolution it is trivial to scale it to 1024x768 without loosing any details. If it is a circle it is somewhat more difficult but not by much. A part of a real video frame contains many primitive areas that can get the same processing as a box or a circle.


Will
 

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Those who do color printing with their digital cameras and computers are familiar with programs that "interpolate" digital images to create higher apparent resolutions. While the effect cannot add "missing detail" I have to tell you that the final result can be a 16x20 print that looks as good as an 8x10 in detail, and lack of lixelization. Scalers are the electronic counterparts of these programs. Does the image look better at 720p scaled from 480i or 480p ? YES!! Is it magic - well depends on your definition of magic I suppose. It IS real, and works.


Some DVD players (Bravo D-1 and Samsung 931 (both under $300) have direct digital output through DVI, and can use internal scalers to output DVD material at 720P and 1080i. In fairness, while scaling DVD to 720 is, to my eye a nice improvement in PQ, the next step of taking DVD material to 1080 is less so.



Chris
 
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