[Captain Spaulding]

I've run the autosetup on my Denon 2307 several times. Each time it lists my front speakers as being large, even though they only go down to about 60Hz. Any thoughts on why this is happening? Could it just be the room acoustics?

 

[JOHNnDENVER]

If they do 60hz strong, I am not surprised.


Most people I read using auto calibration, will let the auto cal setup the the EQ and levels then go back and set the speakers to run as they want them too as far as crossover point and small -vs- large.

 

[David Aiken]

A "large" speaker is usually defined as one with useable output below 80 Hz. If yours go down to 60 Hz, then they would qualify as large.


The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You've done the auto setup so how do things sound when you apply the results? If things sound good and you're happy with the results, it really doesn't matter if your speakers are classified as 'large' or as 'small'. On the other hand, if they were classified as 'small' and you were happy with that classification, but the resulting sound was poor, then the fact that the speaker size classification made you happy wouldn't be particularly important.


The crossover to the sub is set higher for 'small' speakers. Setting the crossover higher takes some work off your main speakers which can be a good thing, but it also means that the sub is likely to be perceived as a separate sound source which isn't a good thing. What you're playing with when it comes to the 'large'/'small' setting is a group of compromises determining how the mains and the sub interact. What is important is achieving the best compromise for your system and it's the quality of the sound you get which determines which is the best compromise.


David Aiken

 

[cneely8]

The traditional advice, mentioned many times on the forums, is if you are into movies and home theater, all speakers should be set to small, in almost *every* circumstance.


I had my big Polk rti12's, powered by 400 watts per channel, set to large, and when set to small, for dynamic music and for movie peaks there was an improvement, despite the fact that when using test tones my speakers are flat down to about 30 Hz. It's the dynamic stuff that gets you in a large speaker- not the range of freqs that it's being asked to produce, but how many of those at the same time or in short intervals. That's where the small setting really helps out and adds stuff to the performance.


Do a search on large and small settings in the speaker forum, this has been covered in great depth by many folks, with the same conclusion- small is 99.9% the way to go.

 

[soundlovr]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Spaulding /forum/post/0


I've run the autosetup on my Denon 2307 several times. Each time it lists my front speakers as being large, even though they only go down to about 60Hz. Any thoughts on why this is happening? Could it just be the room acoustics?

A speaker that can hit 80Hz+/-3dB from the mean is large. So yours are plenty large... according to a receiver. That doesn't mean that they won't perform better as small or that small isn't the proper "audiophile" setting, it just means that's how receiver-makers have implemented things. More reading here.

 

[methcat]



Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aiken /forum/post/0


The crossover to the sub is set higher for 'small' speakers. Setting the crossover higher takes some work off your main speakers which can be a good thing, but it also means that the sub is likely to be perceived as a separate sound source which isn't a good thing. What you're playing with when it comes to the 'large'/'small' setting is a group of compromises determining how the mains and the sub interact.

David Aiken

i've been trying to figure out how this works on my 2805. anytime i'm set to small, you can't dictate how the sub works (mains+lfe). it's gone from the menu.


but i couldn't figure out what the difference would be between setting to "large and mains + lfe" or "small with sub, but no sub mode". i guess the fronts are the same either way since they will be crossed at 100hz either way, it's sounds like just the sub reacts different?


i've just been learning how to get this thing tuned, it's going ok so far. mostly having problems getting mids to stand out. didn't seem to be a problem when i had my old sony de845... maybe i just never heard the rest of the spectrum come out so well

!!

 

[David Aiken]



Quote:
Originally Posted by methcat /forum/post/0


i've been trying to figure out how this works on my 2805. anytime i'm set to small, you can't dictate how the sub works (mains+lfe). it's gone from the menu.


but i couldn't figure out what the difference would be between setting to "large and mains + lfe" or "small with sub, but no sub mode". i guess the fronts are the same either way since they will be crossed at 100hz either way, it's sounds like just the sub reacts different?


i've just been learning how to get this thing tuned, it's going ok so far. mostly having problems getting mids to stand out. didn't seem to be a problem when i had my old sony de845... maybe i just never heard the rest of the spectrum come out so well

!!

Well, it would be nice to have some more information in the manual, and a better written manual while they were at it would be even nicer.


According to my manualfor the Australian version of the 2807 which is slightly different to the US versionthe sub handles all frequency info below the crossover setting for speakers set to 'small', but both the sub and the main speaker handle frequencies below the crossover if the speaker is set to 'large' (Page 59 - "Setting the Crossover Frequency). It appears that you should be able to adjust the crossover frequency for small speakers.


For 'Large' speakers with the sub set to 'LFE', the speaker handles its own channel info below the crossover frequency and the sub handles the LFE channel info only. For 'Small' speakers, all info below the crossover frequency is sent to the sub and the main handles nothing below the crossover frequency. That's why there is not an 'LFE + Main' option for 'Small' speakers: small speakers don't get sent information below the crossover frequency so you simply can't have an option about whether or not to sent that information to the sub as well as to the main. It can only go to the sub when the speaker is set to 'small'.


The "Large' speaker setting allows you to send information below the crossover frequency to both the sub and to the main speaker with the 'LFE =+ Main' setting, rather than just to the main speaker with the 'LFE' setting.


If there's no sub, the mains get the signal for their particular channel plus I thinknote that I said "I think" the LFE channel info is added to each channel as well, and the speakers are left to fend for themselves as well as they can under the circumstances. When you tell the receiver that there is no sub, the front speakers are automatically set to "Large" and you can't change that.


David Aiken

 

[methcat]

thanks, that helps alot. i've got mine set to small now (they're about as small as they get, NHT zeros). while i don't expect incredible mid base out of my setup, i feel like i'm missing it entirely. i have a yamaha sub yst150 that while not incredible, has taken up the slack for my zeros with other receivers. i've gone through the auto setup, one thing i noticed, is that it tends to set the sub at -4 bd while it sets everything else at +4db. even after i push it up to 0db and turn off the room eq it still sounds hollow and tinny, with tons of low bass and lots of crystal clear highs.


i did notice that the auto room eq tries to set my fronts 120 hz up to +9db, which seems excessive. any other ideas of places to look?

some background info...

i have a big empty room, hardwood floors, 3 walls of windows and open beam ceilings (though i didn't feel like i was missing this range with the same speakers in the same room before the new receiver).


the receiver is used, new to me... i assume these things don't go part bad soundwise... i'm still assuming it's something i'm just not doing right or not used to yet.


edit***

changed sub from sw80 t0 sw150, my mistake.

 

[David Aiken]

The difference between the level setting for the mains and the setting for the sub reflects the fact that they have different sensitivities. Obviously the sub delivers a higher volume for the same input than do the mains. That's not surprising since small monitors tend to be inefficient, but part of it is also the fact that the sub has it's own amp and the gain setting for that amp circuit is going to be different to the gain setting for the 2807's amp. There's also a difference between the levels for my mains and for my sub. It isn't as big as the difference in your settings but then I'm using floorstanders and a REL sub, so you would expect to see differences in our settings.


I don't know how your NHTs perform but, given your room description, I'd say things would tend to sound a little, perhaps even a lot, bright without EQ. I suspect that what the EQ is doing is a boost at the lower frequencies handled by the NHTs in order to try and match them to the sub. There's probably some roll off too at higher frequencies but the EQ chart doesn't give you a real good idea of what is going on in the top octave.


In my system, the AutoEQ result using the Audyssey curve sounds extremely good. I also have a hard room, ceramic floor tiles with no covering, large windows and glass doors to the patio. a glass display case full of ceramics, and an aquarium. Things sound bright and hard without the EQ but surprisingly well balanced with it in my room.


One thing I did find, however, was that I had to remove the footstools in front of the couch when I made the measurements. I got phase errors on at least one speaker every time I tried the initial test with the footstools in place. I remove the footstools, close the windows and any doors opening into the open plan area that are normally closed, plus I also close the door to the patio which is often open. With no obstructions on the floor between the speakers and the microphone, apart from the couch I sit on which is too large to shift, I get very good results each time, and I've repeated the setup several times now due to changing my front speakers and then adding surrounds when I went from 2 to 4 channels, and also when I shifted the couch forward by a bit over a foot to reduce the viewing distance.


David Aiken

 

[methcat]

thanks again for the info, much appreciated. i'll just have to keep messing with it. maybe i'm just too used to a different sound.

 

[Britcanuck]

I ran the auto/audyssey setup last weekend on my 2807. Results have been similar to above posts with my L&R bookshelves set to large with a 60Hz crossover point. My center was set to small with a 120Hz crossover. I have set the sub to LFE+main, think it helped.


Overall, the sound seems more detailed with dialogue much clearer, but something seems to be lacking. The bass could be part of the problem. I had the sub channel level set to +3.5 before running audyssey, and it's now at -6.5. Thought of upping the sub chanell level, but don't want my green audyssey light turning to red because of my manual adjustments due to the receiver thinking I've not done something it deems as correct.


The audyssey setting sounds better than the flat/manual/off settings, but not quite as good as when I set the system up manually before running audyssey or so it seems to me anyway.


The speaker distances and channel levels seemed pretty accurate, a touch better than when I had the tape measure out and setting the levels by ear. I'm not sure about the room correction eq though. I guess it's a trade off.


I was thinking of writing down the distances/levels and setting up manually again with all speakers as small and crossed over at good ol 80Hz. Can the auto/audyssey settings be cleared without having to do a full reset on the system, so that I can go in and manually set my levels as I had before????

Thanks!

 

[Kal Rubinson]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Britcanuck /forum/post/0


I was thinking of writing down the distances/levels and setting up manually again with all speakers as small and crossed over at good ol 80Hz. Can the auto/audyssey settings be cleared without having to do a full reset on the system, so that I can go in and manually set my levels as I had before????

Thanks!

Cleared? Why not just turn Audyssey off from the remote control? Also, you can always manually override the level settings.


Let me say this for the Nth time: Distance, crossover and level are not part of the Audyssey setup and are independant.

EDIT ON 1/24/07:

Let me apologize and restate this consquent to a communication from Audyssey:

Distance, crossover and level are not part of Audyssey EQ but they are part of the Audyssey setup They can be adjusted post hoc, however, and can be used independant of the Audyssey EQ.


Hope this hasn't misled anyone.

 

[Britcanuck]

I think that's what I want to do, clear everything. If I turn audyssey off, are my speakers still not set at the various crossovers (60Hz= L&R, 120Hz=center), and speaker size large for the L&R and small for my center as above?


I liked the distance and channel levels set by the auto setup and would keep those, I'm just not sure I'm comfortable with the large small and crossover settings. So I was thinking of going back to my orginal settings where the speakers were all "small", and the crossover for all set at 80Hz.


The manual isn't overly clear about clearing the setup, so was wondering how to do that without doing a complete reset?

 

[Kal Rubinson]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Britcanuck /forum/post/0


I think that's what I want to do, clear everything. If I turn audyssey off, are my speakers still not set at the various crossovers (60Hz= L&R, 120Hz=center), and speaker size large for the L&R and small for my center as above?

Yes but you can manually set them wherever you want from the menus. There's no reason to clear Audyssey settings if they are bypassed.

 

[Britcanuck]

Ah ha! (lightbulb above head flickers slightly to life)


so what you're saying is: I set the crossover for each speaker manually to the levels I had before the auto setup (ie 80Hz), set all the speaker sizes to small, and audyssey to off, will give me what I had previously.


Then, if I feel like, I can turn audyssey on and it will apply the "eq", I wonder how that would sound then....


If, however, I wanted to go back to how the system "thought" the room and speakers should be setup as "correct" when I ran auto setup/audyssey last weekend, then I'd have to change my speaker sizes and crossovers.

 

[joffer]

i think the CEs should rename the "Large/Small" setting on their receivers. i get the feeling that 80% of the questions that come about this setting come from the fact that many people have trouble calling their speaker that they just dropped $1K on "small", even though it's just a setting.


maybe something like "Good Bass / Earth Shattering Bass"

just a thought

 

[Kal Rubinson]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Britcanuck /forum/post/0


Ah ha! (lightbulb above head flickers slightly to life)


so what you're saying is: I set the crossover for each speaker manually to the levels I had before the auto setup (ie 80Hz), set all the speaker sizes to small, and audyssey to off, will give me what I had previously.

Yup.

Quote:
Then, if I feel like, I can turn audyssey on and it will apply the "eq", I wonder how that would sound then....

Dunno

Quote:
If, however, I wanted to go back to how the system "thought" the room and speakers should be setup as "correct" when I ran auto setup/audyssey last weekend, then I'd have to change my speaker sizes and crossovers.

Yup.

 

[shadow 8]

Its kind of funny to hear folks complaining that they do not like how the EQ makes their system sound. If it does not sound like it did before you did the room EQ, maybe you do not like the sound of your speakers w/o room artifacts added? Facinating thread.

 

[Kal Rubinson]



Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow 8 /forum/post/0


Its kind of funny to hear folks complaining that they do not like how the EQ makes their system sound. If it does not sound like it did before you did the room EQ, maybe you do not like the sound of your speakers w/o room artifacts added? Facinating thread.

Yes. One factor is that we adapt to the sound of our systems and, unless there is something outrageously wrong, that becomes the reference to us, warts and all, including boomy, uneven bass. Clean it up and the goosebumps are not as common. One needs to re-adapt to the EQ-ed sound.

 

[Dick]

I have the Denon AVR - 1707 and have run the Auto- set up, but I can't

figure out how to *see* what auto setup did ( such as large vs small, xover, etc ).


How can I display that information. I must say the Denon manual is either

not very user friendly or it may be my lack of knowledge.



All this is very new to me ( first time owner of AV gear ).


Dick.