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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I will be connecting one to an HDTV and a 5.1(maybe 7.1) surround sound system. Which receiver would produce better sound have have better upscaling capabilities? Do they have significant difference in features that I should know about? Thanks
 

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I'd also like some input on these receivers. Pro's and Con's of each.


I will be using a PS3 for Blu-ray movies, music and gaming connected via HDMI to the receiver, receiver HDMI out to my display. I care about LPCM, etc. Also will be using 360 with component/optical for gaming and a HD direcTV via HDMI.


Is the power adequate to drive my Energy RC-30's and sound good without adding an additional amplifier? I want it to sound nice and tight/full at low levels and moderate levels, much more important to me than being able to piss off the people across the street.


Running Energy RC-30's up front and Energy C-3's for the rear and adding sub soon (HSU or SVS):


Width: 12'6" (150"s) with an opening to the kitchen on one side about 4"s from corner (Width 3'2" (38's), Height 6'8 (80's)

Lenght: 13'6" (162"s)

Height: 8' (96"s)


Volume: 1350 (hardwood floors)
 

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"Is the power adequate to drive my Energy RC-30's and sound good without adding an additional amplifier? I want it to sound nice and tight/full at low levels and moderate levels"



Denon 2807 - 110 wpc, 30 lbs

Pioneer Elite VSX-82... - 130 wpc, 35 lbs


Both these amplifiers have plenty of power and should drive any good surround speaker system up to $3500 in cost. Assuming you will be using a good center channel but not big floorstanders for the front (L+R) speakers.


I would be partial to the Pioneer Elite because its larger and better power supply will allow the unit to do what you want (tight, quality dynamics at reasonable listening levels) better.

However, a friend of mine has an older 80 wpc Denon and it is a very good unit. I just perceive the Pioneer Elite to be marginally better. Either unit would be better, in my opinion, than many of the other "reasonably priced" brands.


One thing to consider, at your price point I'd be taking a hard look at the Outlaw Audio Model 1070 A/V receiver . And don't let the 65wpc power rating dissuade you unless you are going to use large power sucking speakers - with the normal $2000 for the 5.1 system speaker setup (like Definitive Technology Pro Cinema 1000 system) I'd bet the Outlaw unit would smoke both the Pioneer Elite and the Denon units. BUT, if you select an Outlaw unit make sure it comes with HDMI switching as they have been slower to incorporate it...


Ooooooooooh, wait! One of you do have floorstanders!




For one of you, I'd talk to someone who has the Outlaw receiver and the Energy speakers before jumping on the Outlaw wagon train - the Energy floorstanders would probably work fine with the Outlaw receiver, but they might also benefit from both the power supply and the extra wpc of the Pioneer Elite Receiver. I'd suggest the Denon would be not the better choice with floorstanders, just because of its lesser power supply.


[Power supply capacity/adequacy can be approximated by comparing the weights of receivers, as it contributes to the majority of a component's weight. Notice, the Outlaw receiver weights 40 lbs at (conservatively rated, all channels driven at the same time) 65 wpc. IF indeed it would smoke the other two units (driving medium sized speakers) part of the reason would be because of its superior power supply.]


I guess, one point I'd like to make (say again, differently?) is: for quality, not quantity, power supply is more important than wpc. In the not that rare case of when (in higher end equipment, even when played to quite loud, but not ear splitting levels) a 80 wpc receiver smokes a 110 wpc receiver it almost certainly due to one having a good power supply and the other having a supreme power supply.


A third way to say it ( I know:
): I'd suggest, until the Outlaw unit "peters out" becuase it has done all it can with whatever power (wpc) it has available, it would sound better than either of the other two units.


"much more important to me than being able to piss off the people across the street."

that was funny. Probably a good goal to have (musically, as well as socially) too.
 

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Which receiver would... have better upscaling capabilities?


a) I didn't know receivers did upscaling (like from a 480p DVD to one's 1080i or 1080p television?).


b) Regardless, a better solution would be to have your good upscaling DVD player do the upscaling as it would do the best job.

(I purchased a Toshiba HD-DVD player mainly because it is supposed to upscale SD DVD's better than my XBR2 television or the $150 to $280 upscaling DVD players currently available. Yes, it plays HD-DVD's too, but that's just a bonus (assuming HD-DVD's continue to be sold...).


c) If A/V receivers can upscale a video signal, I would still think that a good DVD player or good 1080p television would upscale much better than a device primarily designed by long-term audio people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Do the Definitive Theater Procinema 1000 speakers sound good even though they're only bookshelf speakers? How do they compare against the Aperion Intimus 533-T LR speakers? I've got plenty of space in my room (20x20) so I don't mind bulky floor standing speakers as long as they sound good. I'm looking for a 5.1 (upgradable to 7.1 in the future) system under $2000 (sub included).
 

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"Has there actually been any testing on this weight to performance correlation on receivers? What does a 5lb difference sound like? "


I'm sure not, but my friend's home theatre installer suggested this same theory to me last weekend, unsolicited. What does a 5 lb difference sound like? I'd suggest this means a 10 lb power supply instead of a 5 lb power supply. I'd suggest that you could a/b the two receivers with a speaker system that somewhat mated well to both, and you would instantly be able to tell which one was tighter and more controlled. Making you happier as you watch action movies or musicals.


YES, it is a crude "measurement", but when comparing several Japanese manufactured a/v receivers that have at least a semblance (I think that's a word) of similar construction, more weight will almost always translate to a better power supply.


And more power supply means a tighter sound at both normal and louder listening levels.


Take six a/v receivers rated at 110 wpc and find the one that sounds clearly better than the other five (not by a mile, but better). Better meaning it is tight and controlled at low to high to very high volumes, and while reproducing complex sounds through five speakers at the same time - whereas the others are just pretty good at low to high volumes and slightly wimp out when presented with difficult sounds or fairly loud volumes. You will almost certainly find the clearly better a/v receiver is the one with the better power supply (thus, it weighs more).


I might add that some receivers have a warm sound and are well placed in a system with bright speakers - others are brighter sounding and work fine as long as you speakers are warmer sounding to begin with. So in my example, "better" means better sounding with appropriately selected speakers, not necessarily better for every speaker ever made.


Why do some receivers sound better than others? Build quality and better components have some effect (but these things usually result in a $1400 Rotel instead of a $800 Pioneer, Denon, Harmon Karden...). I'm just saying that in similarly constructed Japanese manufactured receivers, paying for a better power supply is more productive than paying for a few more wpc.
 

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I have anolder Pioneer Elite 45TX and I've recently installed a 2807 in a friends HT. My first Denon because that's what he wanted. I liked the Pioneer 1016 the same for Audio as the Denon. The 1016 dooes not have upconversion like the Denon.


The advanced MCACC n the Pioneer woiuld sway my opinion assuming Pioneer has its HDMI issues worked out if your switching HDMI. If your not, IMHO, the Pioneers are my favorite choice. I agree that you should check out Outlaw as I've heard these and they are very good but typically do not have all the bells and whistles that the latest Pioneer's have....


Good Luck!


Mike
 

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"Do the Definitive Theater Procinema 1000 speakers sound good even though they're only bookshelf speakers?"



YES. Because, the center channel does most of the work and these (ported) L+R speakers were made to match up well with a ProCinema 1000 subwoofer (or two). Without the subwoofer... whole different ballgame - you'd need to spend more money on floorstanders and then they still wouldn't begin to approach the impact provided by a decent quality sub.


I only heard the ProCinema system in a smaller room, about 14' x 16', with 8' ceilings. Nearly half the size of a 20' x 20' room (and exactly half the cubic footage if your 20' x 20' room has 9' ceilings).


I would suggest a couple of things for your room.


a) these bookshelf speakers would not be "bad", especially if you have your seating area 3' to 5' from your back wall (as is good, sofa against back wall gives you less feeling of "presence", of "participating" in the movie instead of "watching" it).

A rear projection television screen 2' from wall would give you a 13' to 15' viewing and listening distance. Perhaps the limit of the ProCinema 1000 bookshelves, but I'd think about the following suggestions and then upgrade the L+R (heck, basically you'd be upgrading to a completely larger system) if your budget allows. If your budget doesn't allow, I'd be pretty surprised if these L+R speakers with the following upgrades to the CC and sub(s) would ever disappoint you.


b) Upgrading to the C/L/R 2200 center channel speaker would be an instantly recognizable upgrade - the first one I'd do before upgrading the L+R speakers.


c) The ProCinema 1000 sub is a good sub, and more musical than their supercube series subs. Unless you care nothing about music, just sports and action movies, I'd consider using two ProCinema 1000 subs as opposed to upgrading to one 12" super duper sub. [Supposedly, two $600 subs are twice as good as one, larger, $900 sub - for sure in rooms 3000 CF or larger - for only 33% more money ($1200 vs $900). And, you don't have to purchase the two subs at the same time (or you can purchase one and demo one and see if you can stand for the demo to go back to the store!)] To save money, if you don't care anything about music, you might find using just one $600 less musical sub of the 12" variety would be satisfactory. I like music so I hate "thumpers"! Just so you know my "bias".


d) Yes, in a room your size, larger L+R speakers might yield a slightly better result. However, I'd suggest using a better center channel speaker and incorporating two medium subs instead of one large one would increase the pleasure of your listening experience much more than incorporating larger L+R speakers.


Conclusion: in your room I'd not hesitate to try the ProCinema 1000 system with the C/L/R 2200 center channel and two ProCinema 1000 subs. I'd expect it to be better than the systems owned by 95% of (not only your friends, but) anyone you know. Unless you work in a law office or are a surgical nurse - and therefore know several attorneys or doctors
.


Hope this helps!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelsFan /forum/post/0

Which receiver would... have better upscaling capabilities?


a) I didn't know receivers did upscaling (like from a 480p DVD to one's 1080i or 1080p television?).


b) Regardless, a better solution would be to have your good upscaling DVD player do the upscaling as it would do the best job.

(I purchased a Toshiba HD-DVD player mainly because it is supposed to upscale SD DVD's better than my XBR2 television or the $150 to $280 upscaling DVD players currently available. Yes, it plays HD-DVD's too, but that's just a bonus (assuming HD-DVD's continue to be sold...).


c) If A/V receivers can upscale a video signal, I would still think that a good DVD player or good 1080p television would upscale much better than a device primarily designed by long-term audio people.


Woops. Was I off track here! Copied from another post (of mine):

I just learned what upconverting receivers do (not convert 480i to 720p or 1080i as upconverting DVD players do) - they take the component analog video signal from your old cable tv box and/or dvd player and convert it to a digital video signal that can be output via the receiver's HDMI output (to your television).


Important, the Pioneer Elite VSX-82 does this but the VSX-80 does not. Probably of supreme importance to some people.



As far as would the Pioneer Elite upconvert better than the Denon? I don't know. I do know that when a person upgrades their DVD player and cable box it won't matter, as their new units will have HDMI outputs. Having several HDMI inputs could become a major convenience down the road though...
 

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If you want Blu-Ray and/or HD-DVD advanced sound... don't get the Outlaw. There are no HDMI inputs. I wouldn't expect to see a new, up to date Outlaw pre-amp or receiver until late this year or next.


Dan
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DelsFan /forum/post/0

"Do the Definitive Theater Procinema 1000 speakers sound good even though they're only bookshelf speakers?"



YES. Because, the center channel does most of the work and these (ported) L+R speakers were made to match up well with a ProCinema 1000 subwoofer (or two). Without the subwoofer... whole different ballgame - you'd need to spend more money on floorstanders and then they still wouldn't begin to approach the impact provided by a decent quality sub.


I only heard the ProCinema system in a smaller room, about 14' x 16', with 8' ceilings. Nearly half the size of a 20' x 20' room (and exactly half the cubic footage if your 20' x 20' room has 9' ceilings).


I would suggest a couple of things for your room.


a) these bookshelf speakers would not be "bad", especially if you have your seating area 3' to 5' from your back wall (as is good, sofa against back wall gives you less feeling of "presence", of "participating" in the movie instead of "watching" it).

A rear projection television screen 2' from wall would give you a 13' to 15' viewing and listening distance. Perhaps the limit of the ProCinema 1000 bookshelves, but I'd think about the following suggestions and then upgrade the L+R (heck, basically you'd be upgrading to a completely larger system) if your budget allows. If your budget doesn't allow, I'd be pretty surprised if these L+R speakers with the following upgrades to the CC and sub(s) would ever disappoint you.


b) Upgrading to the C/L/R 2200 center channel speaker would be an instantly recognizable upgrade - the first one I'd do before upgrading the L+R speakers.


c) The ProCinema 1000 sub is a good sub, and more musical than their supercube series subs. Unless you care nothing about music, just sports and action movies, I'd consider using two ProCinema 1000 subs as opposed to upgrading to one 12" super duper sub. [Supposedly, two $600 subs are twice as good as one, larger, $900 sub - for sure in rooms 3000 CF or larger - for only 33% more money ($1200 vs $900). And, you don't have to purchase the two subs at the same time (or you can purchase one and demo one and see if you can stand for the demo to go back to the store!)] To save money, if you don't care anything about music, you might find using just one $600 less musical sub of the 12" variety would be satisfactory. I like music so I hate "thumpers"! Just so you know my "bias".


d) Yes, in a room your size, larger L+R speakers might yield a slightly better result. However, I'd suggest using a better center channel speaker and incorporating two medium subs instead of one large one would increase the pleasure of your listening experience much more than incorporating larger L+R speakers.


Conclusion: in your room I'd not hesitate to try the ProCinema 1000 system with the C/L/R 2200 center channel and two ProCinema 1000 subs. I'd expect it to be better than the systems owned by 95% of (not only your friends, but) anyone you know. Unless you work in a law office or are a surgical nurse - and therefore know several attorneys or doctors
.


Hope this helps!

Would DefTech allow me to match the ProCinema 1000 systems with floor standing LR speakers? If so, which ones would you recommend?

Also, wouldn't the 12" sub be overkill for a 15x15 room?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DelsFan /forum/post/0


Woops. Was I off track here! Copied from another post (of mine):

I just learned what upconverting receivers do (not convert 480i to 720p or 1080i as upconverting DVD players do) - they take the component analog video signal from your old cable tv box and/or dvd player and convert it to a digital video signal that can be output via the receiver's HDMI output (to your television).


Important, the Pioneer Elite VSX-82 does this but the VSX-80 does not. Probably of supreme importance to some people.



As far as would the Pioneer Elite upconvert better than the Denon? I don't know. I do know that when a person upgrades their DVD player and cable box it won't matter, as their new units will have HDMI outputs. Having several HDMI inputs could become a major convenience down the road though...

The CNET review here says that the Pioneer VSX-82TXS includes a "Faroudja HD scaler that converts all analog video inputs to your choice of 480p, 720p, or 1080i resolutions over the receiver's HDMI output." Do you know anything about the quality of the Faroudja HD scaler? Are they better than the ones in the Sony DVP-NS75H or the Sony KDS-60A200? Is the improvement significant at all?


Also, the 82TXS is THX Select2 certified. What does that mean? Does it produce better sound than non-thx certified receivers?
 

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ABSOLUTELY get the Denon. There are two reasons that have been mentioned over and over in other threads. The Pioneer has bass problems and the video conversion degrades the picture quality / adds artifacts. Read the Pioneer thread for details about the "LFE" problem, and read the below professional review about the video problems. Pioneer has yet to release a fix for either problem (and has no timetable to do so, so who knows how long you could be using a receiver with crappy bass and video issues). The Denon on the other hand has a lot of love from CNET and many satisfied users. One more detail to consider: don't get the Denon AVR-2807, get the Denon AVR-987. It's the SAME receiver which has a different model number for different retailers. If you call www.jr.com , you can get the 987 from a factory authorized dealer (which means the warranty is valid) for only $799 shipped. The Pioneer is (as far as I can tell) $1199 from a factory authorized (warranty valid) dealer. Good luck


http://www.audioholics.com/productre...SX-82TXSp1.php
 

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I am looking at these two receivers as well. Seem to have similar features, the Pioneer has the video problem which is supposed to be fixed via firmware update soon, and I've read some problems with Denon customer service/support.


Both are similar and price so I'm having a hard time deciding.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjensen /forum/post/0


ABSOLUTELY get the Denon. There are two reasons that have been mentioned over and over in other threads. The Pioneer has bass problems and the video conversion degrades the picture quality / adds artifacts. Read the Pioneer thread for details about the "LFE" problem, and read the below professional review about the video problems. Pioneer has yet to release a fix for either problem (and has no timetable to do so, so who knows how long you could be using a receiver with crappy bass and video issues). The Denon on the other hand has a lot of love from CNET and many satisfied users. One more detail to consider: don't get the Denon AVR-2807, get the Denon AVR-987. It's the SAME receiver which has a different model number for different retailers. If you call www.jr.com , you can get the 987 from a factory authorized dealer (which means the warranty is valid) for only $799 shipped. The Pioneer is (as far as I can tell) $1199 from a factory authorized (warranty valid) dealer. Good luck


http://www.audioholics.com/productre...SX-82TXSp1.php

I noticed Circuit City carries the 987 while Best Buy carries the 2807.. Are they really the exact same?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey /forum/post/0


I noticed Circuit City carries the 987 while Best Buy carries the 2807.. Are they really the exact same?

EXACTLY the same receiver, different remote. See for yourself:

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/...mageField.y=17


Save some $$$ and get the AVR-987 from www.jr.com . I decided the Pioneer had too many problems and ordered my AVR-987 yesterday
A lot of people have been taking advantage of this price; they are currently out of stock but are getting more soon.
 
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