[jigesh]

A news item I came across today: Denon Abandon DVD-Audio and SACD in ‘Budget’ Players says
Quote:

"Denon have announced that they are deliberately dropping DVD-Audio and SACD from their budget and entry-level players in a move that will send shivers down the spines of those trying to promote high-resolution formats."

and has quoted Denon’s PR representative Robert Follis (probably U.K.) as saying:
Quote:

“In a practical move designed to benefit the average user, the 1910 deliberately does not have unnecessary SACD or DVD-A circuitry. These formats are being totally ignored by general consumers and at this price point, their inclusion is a waste of time and money. The cash instead has gone on stunning video and great sound.â€

 

[ranster]

Wow, that is quite a bold statement by Denon. Just as DVD-a is hitting the automotive arena (Acura TL) and chain stores (BB). Unnecessary?????

 

[Q of BanditZ]

From a big picture standpoint, I can see why they're doing this. Sadly, I have to agree with the Denon's assessment. The guy strolling through Best Buy or Circuit City on a Sunday afternoon who wants a nice DVD Player for cheap doesn't care about these formats. A lot of people still don't even know what the they are, which is really sad.


Entry level is something like the 1910, correct? How much more would the 1910 have cost if they had included DVD-A and SACD on it? I think that's really all there is to it.


For entry level people, who, for the most part don't care about high rez audio, this allows Denon to come out with a lower priced unit.


For Denon, their definitions of "entry level" is Joe Six Pack strolling through Circuit City looking to get something fast and cheap. Most people buy these units as DVD players first, everything else second.


Take the Yamaha s1500 for another example:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...h&articles=120


Just today alone, we have two threads complaining about some video aspect.


The s1500 did not fare well in the Secrets' shootout either. It's an MSRP of about $400 or so, largely due to SACD and DVD-A. This puts JUST above the entry level price consideration.


How much would the s1500 have cost if it didn't have the SACD and DVD-A circuitry in it? $200 maybe?


I don't like that term "uneccesary." This is an attitude that will assure that the high rez audio never takes off. That's the attitude that's BEEN working against it for several years.


I think that attitude has been going on for too long and that's a lot of the reason why high rez audio is still a niche market. That's a shame. I know if I sat anyone down in a room right now and I let them sample it, it would sell itself. It's just not getting done. I think it's tragic that we're halfway through the first decade of the 21st century and we're still stuck on CD's and making sidways/backwards steps with WMA and MP3's. That makes me sad.


But, if the first priority is to put out a high quality, entry level DVD Video Player at the best price possible, you have to cut some fat off and I guess I can see their point from that angle.

 

[sergiohm]

Eric,

Unfortunately your argument does not hold. The Pioneer DV-578A-S has a MSRP of $149.99 (I saw it in Best Buy for $119.99). It offers built-in DD/DTS, plays everything under the sun (including DVD-A/SACD) and offers progressive scanning. Compare it to the Denon 1910 for MSRP $249.99! The only thing Denon offers feature wise is HDMI and the built-in scaler. For the guy who strolls through BB or CC, which one do you think he would pick? Does this person really care that much about picture quality ? Folks like these probably do not even have an HDMI/DVI input on their TV anyway. Not to mention that Samsung offers the Samsung DVD-HD841 which not only has DVD-A/SACD but also HDMI and the scaler.

(Not to mention the Sony DVP-NS775V which at $129 offers SACD).


Now I'm not in any way saying the 1910 does not offer a better picture than either of the players above, but considering the market I do not think it mattes and I think Denon is making a bad move and that executive i.m.h.o should be looking for another job


(I can already read in S&V cons, Denon 1910 - does not offer SACD/DVD-A)

 

[Q of BanditZ]

Quote:

Originally posted by sergiohm Eric, Unfortunately your argument does not hold. The Pioneer DV-578A-S has a MSRP of $149.99 (I saw it in Best Buy for $119.99). It offers built-in DD/DTS, plays everything under the sun (including DVD-A/SACD) and offers progressive scanning.

Ok, yeah. That's a very fair point.


However, subjectively speaking, I've seen a wide body of opinion that described a player that has a very spotty track record. In other words, it's does everything OK, but not great. You're not going to confuse the PQ on that unit to even the Zenith 318, to say nothing about the Denon 1910 and 2910. It just isn't even close. Audio also has a somewhat spotty track record.


It's a great entry level unit. That's all it is, but thanks for mentioning it.


I can't tell if Pioneer has discontinued this unit or not. If they have, I think that's rather telling. But yes, this player is an easy example of how affordable high rez audio is for entry level and I think if I took it, plugged in to even a $200 Sony HTIB (most of these are ready with multichannel inputs now) even at that, most people would appreciate the difference. High rez can be had inexpensively and decently enough. Hardcore audiophiles notwithstanding.


It's just not being marketed well enough at all. And Denon's attitude is part of the industry's overall problem in this regard.

Quote:

Compare it to the Denon 1910 for MSRP $249.99! The only thing Denon offers feature wise is HDMI and the built-in scaler.

That's much better, more sophisticated technology. That extra $100 really goes a long way.


Remember, we're talking about people going out expressly to buy a DVD player. Not a high rez audio player, not a CD player, etc. etc.


I gurantee you if you have a shootout between the 578 at its best. vs. the 1910 at its best, this wouldn't even be close. The 1910 isn't perfect, but it's a solid, dedicated video unit that does its job very well, especially at that price level.

Quote:

For the guy who strolls through BB or CC, which one do you think he would pick? Does this person really care that much about picture quality ?

If this thing's marketed properly, Joe Six Pack will see the PQ difference in an A/B shootout of an HDMI upconverted Denon 1910 and the Pioneer 578. At that point, he may decide that the Pioneer 578 gives him more bang for his buck and go that way. I can't really blame him.


Most of us around here are video and audiophiles enough, we'd probably chose the 1910. Joe Six Pack may not. And I can understand why.

Quote:

Folks like these probably do not even have an HDMI/DVI input on their TV anyway. Not to mention that Samsung offers the Samsung DVD-HD841 which not only has DVD-A/SACD but also HDMI and the scaler.

Yeah, but the 841 is a nightmare. Very spotty track record. I don't think Samsung knows how to make a good DVD player. This simply is not a strong suit for them.

Quote:

(Not to mention the Sony DVP-NS775V which at $129 offers SACD).

Yup, this is a good unit.

Quote:

Now I'm not in any way saying the 1910 does not offer a better picture than either of the players above, but considering the market I do not think it mattes and I think Denon is making a bad move and that executive i.m.h.o should be looking for another job

You know my bias on this. I'm a high rez disciple and I shall proclaim the Good News from the rooftops!


But, again, if we're just talking about a DVD player concentrating on that specific function and marketplace, I can see where he's coming from. I gurantee the Denon 1910's PQ knocks out any of the units you named here hands down. And that's what it's primary purpose and function is for.

Quote:

(I can already read in S&V cons, Denon 1910 - does not offer SACD/DVD-A)

If it did, it would be a $400 player, give or take, and that would knock it out of the entry level. That 1910 is STACKED for video at this price level. I think it's arguably the best under $300 player out there and the one to beat right now. Yes, better than the Zenith, if we're talking about upconversion over DVI/HDMI. The 1910 may be a giant killer, if were just talking about video and price.


Street price on the 1910? I can get it around the same price as the Zenith 318. Think about that vs. any of those other units you named.


FWIW, if I were selling electronics right now, say at Circuit City, and I had both these units on hand, I'd do everything in my power to sell BOTH of them to Joe Six Pack. I'd give him every possible legal discount known to mankind, so for under $500, and maybe even under $400, which I know can be done, he has kick ass video AND high rez audio!

 

[Mort]

SACD and DVD-A may die anyway, largley from lack of prime time software titles. Though I really enjoy the formats, they're just not practical in many homes as many people just don't sit down and listen to music in the same way they would watch a DVD. (IMO) The format just isn't well suited for listening to while making dinner or moving about the house.


Mort

 

[Q of BanditZ]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mort SACD and DVD-A may die anyway, largley from lack of prime time software titles. Though I really enjoy the formats, they're just not practical in many homes as many people just don't sit down and listen to music in the same way they would watch a DVD. (IMO) The format just isn't well suited for listening to while making dinner or moving about the house. Mort

This makes me very, very sad. It's a tragedy that shouldn't be. It's a huge, needless waste. Seriously. We really should be at a point where CD's are no longer the "main thing" any longer. Instead we've got MP3's, WMA, and we're still sitting on very overpriced CD's. (I did a breakdown in the XRCD thread on how ridiculous this is.)


It will, imho, one of the biggest tragic wastes I've ever witnessed in all of consumer electronics if what you say comes to pass.

 

[sergiohm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mort SACD and DVD-A may die anyway, largley from lack of prime time software titles.

I agree the lack of titles is one good reason but that is changing for SACD (specially classical music and jazz).
Quote:

Originally posted by Mort Though I really enjoy the formats, they're just not practical in many homes as many people just don't sit down and listen to music in the same way they would watch a DVD. (IMO) The format just isn't well suited for listening to while making dinner or moving about the house. Mort

Now I do not think you have a point here. What is not practical about SACD? It is exactly like a CD, just place it on the player and press the "play" button, it even supports 2-channel if you do not have 5 speakers. DVD-A is another story.

So, your point about listening to while making dinner or moving about is moot. I listen to SACDs all the time while doing that

Now I do have a beef with people that only "listen to" music that way because to me that is not listening, you need to devote your attention to the music. Even for those folks (my wife for example the difference between SACD and CD is pretty clear.

 

[sergiohm]

Eric,

Take a look at the latest, Home Theater magazine, the article is entitled "Entry-Level Universal Disc Player Roundup". There is a review of the Pioneer. On its track record, I have to disagree. All the reviews I've seen are positive and Pioneer makes solid products. On the Samsung I do agree though because I see a lot of them being returned in BB. BTW, this Pioneer is a new model (an update of an older one, they improved the video section) and it has not been discontinued.

And note that the Pioneer is the entry-level, it competes with the Denon DVD-1710, and it is a better video player (according to the Secrets shootout).

At this point, Pioneer is not offering something similar, because it would have to be a 578 with HDMI (I hope they do).

 

[Q of BanditZ]

Ok, that's cool, then. Did you see my tag line on that last response I wrote you? That's the way to have your cake and eat it, too!

 

[jigesh]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mort.... SACD and DVD-A may die anyway, largley from lack of prime time software titles. Though I really enjoy the formats, they're just not practical in many homes as many people just don't sit down and listen to music in the same way they would watch a DVD. (IMO) The format just isn't well suited for listening to while making dinner or moving about the house.

Very likely.


Often those with low-end DVD players don't have 5.1 speaker set-ups; and may not differentiate much between a CD sound and hi-rez sound in their stereo set-ups. If it was originally envisaged stereo-friendly as well, why no boom-box style portable SACD player so far?

 

[magillagorilla]

Possibly stupid question. If you're running a digital feed from a DVD player like a 1910 directly into your receiver (bypassing the players own DACs) and all you care about is the sound quality of DVDs (as opposed to playing audio disks), do Denon's "upgraded" players bring anything more to the audio table than the 1910?

 

[Q of BanditZ]

Quote:

Originally posted by jigesh Very likely. Often those with low-end DVD players don't have 5.1 speaker set-ups; and may not differentiate much between a CD sound and hi-rez sound in their stereo set-ups. If it was originally envisaged stereo-friendly as well, why no boom-box style portable SACD player so far?

I've heard that people can play the high rez formats via two channel audio and still notice a signifigant difference. True? If so, you're idea of an SACD boom box would seem to be something I'd see Sony take a crack at one of these days soon...

 

[sergiohm]

Quote:

Originally posted by magillagorilla Possibly stupid question. If you're running a digital feed from a DVD player like a 1910 directly into your receiver (bypassing the players own DACs) and all you care about is the sound quality of DVDs (as opposed to playing audio disks), do Denon's "upgraded" players bring anything more to the audio table than the 1910?

The difference in clock may make a difference as well as the build because of the transport (less jitter). But some folks "swear" there is no difference, while others do.

 

[sergiohm]

Quote:

Originally posted by jigesh Very likely. Often those with low-end DVD players don't have 5.1 speaker set-ups; and may not differentiate much between a CD sound and hi-rez sound in their stereo set-ups. If it was originally envisaged stereo-friendly as well, why no boom-box style portable SACD player so far?

Because it would probably not make a difference (I assume). A boom-box is so low-fi you probably cannot tell the difference between a CD and a well-encoded MP3 CD anyway. It is simply not worth it. Any SACD player in the market can be connected to a stereo set-up, and the SACD player can be set to use the 2-channel layer by default. There aren't any SACD portables I know of but there are some DVD-A portables (I know there is one by Panasonic), they are 2-channel and when the DVD-A recording has no 2-channel track they probably dowmix it.

 

[Krobar]

Looks like a brave but sensible choice by Denon. Most general consumers do not care about these formats and even fewer have supporting audio equipment capable of revealing a difference.

 

[mchuckp]

people refer to "Joe 6 pack" is going to buy the cheaper player that plays everything and thus not the Denon 1910. "Joe 6 Pack" will never see a Denon 1910 because he is going to be shopping at major outlets that doesn't stock Denon. Denon is for the well researched anal consumer that will go out of his way to get the best product at the best price.


Denon seemed to have made a great piece of equipment at a price that the well researched consumer who doesn't have a huge wallet can get there hands on. I personally like DVD-A but I like the $250 price tag of the 1910 and it will still play the DVD-Video portion of the DVD-Audio disc.


For any who don't know, DVD-A discs include the album in a DVD-video format on the same disc so that it can be played in all dvd players. It isn't high resolution audio but it is still 5.1 surround. So in my eyes, I'm more than fine with the decision.

 

[Nathan_R]

Quote:

“In a practical move designed to benefit the average user, the 1910 deliberately does not have unnecessary SACD or DVD-A circuitry. These formats are being totally ignored by general consumers and at this price point, their inclusion is a waste of time and money. The cash instead has gone on stunning video and great sound.â€

Wait a sec, exactly in which "general consumer" stores is Denon marketing their esteemed entry-level universal players?


Some of the posts in this thread point to Joe Six Pack shopping in Circuit City and Best Buy-- neither of which carry Denon products. I consider these two stores to be entry-level. The closest thing to a general consumer Denon-carrying electronics store in my area is Tweeter/Hi-Fi Buys. I'd be willing to put Tweeter in the mid-level category. Now, I may not be a big Tweeter fan, but I know there's a large difference between shopping for a dvd player at Best Buy and Tweeter.


I just think it's rather arrogant for Denon to say general consumers don't want their DVD-A/SACD players, when in reality most general consumers wouldn't even be able to find a Denon unit if they tried.


Bad move, Denon.

 

[Q of BanditZ]

Quote:

Originally posted by mchuckp people refer to "Joe 6 pack" is going to buy the cheaper player that plays everything and thus not the Denon 1910. "Joe 6 Pack" will never see a Denon 1910 because he is going to be shopping at major outlets that doesn't stock Denon. Denon is for the well researched anal consumer that will go out of his way to get the best product at the best price.

*awaits some kind of anti-Denon flame comment from someone like HoustonGuy*

Quote:

Denon seemed to have made a great piece of equipment at a price that the well researched consumer who doesn't have a huge wallet can get there hands on. I personally like DVD-A but I like the $250 price tag of the 1910 and it will still play the DVD-Video portion of the DVD-Audio disc.

Right, and you'll just have to settle for "only" 5.1 DTS or Dolby off of the DVD-A disc.

Quote:

For any who don't know, DVD-A discs include the album in a DVD-video format on the same disc so that it can be played in all dvd players. It isn't high resolution audio but it is still 5.1 surround. So in my eyes, I'm more than fine with the decision.

Yeah, it's still a nice audio upgrade even at that!

 

[Mark McQuaide]

IMO, Denon should be adding functionality, not taking it away, especially when Pioneer offers it cheap.


But I agree that these formats may die. People are going downward in audio resolution with MP3, not upward, and the vast majority of people can't tell and/or don't care about the audio quality of hi-res. And they don't sit down and listen to music like the hi-res enthusiasts on this forum. Looking at the deteriorating hi-res displays in Best Buy is depressing. But Tower Records has a nice hi-res selection.


I'll be a dedicated customer for as long as SACD and DVD-A are available and I'll treasure my collection if they die.


Mark