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Due to the sure size of this continued post, I need to close it and start this thread to continue it yet again...Thanks all for such a great posts.


Here is the origional continued thread.... HERE


Thanks!



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David Bott
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Finally, some good news for a change! I was beginning to think that the KCNC people had forgotten about HDTV all together.


Thanks Geof for keeping us updated.


Nick
 

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Reminder -

If you haven't done so already, please join the email distribution list to receive news & events relating to Denver DTV via email. Instructions can be found at the bottom of this post.


Jay




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Note: If you would like to receive email notification of Denver DTV news and events, send an email with 'Subscribe' in the subject line to:

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September!, It's good news, but I was hoping for something by Summer. Oh well, some date is better than no date.
 

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A quick question for you Denver/Littletonites. I live in the Ken-Caryl Valley (behind the hogbacks and low enough to not have line of sight to downtown Denver). Should I be able to get the low power HD signals at my location? Has anyone had any luck out here? I can get the funny channel 31 feed with my attic attenna but get only blips on the signal meter when trying the other channels.


If anyone has had some some luck, I will get up and rotate the antenna or try another antenna.


Thanks! And, thanks for this informative thread!


Mike...


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Mike Saemisch


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KCNC's email certainly is good news. I, along with others, was beginning to think they just weren't interested in any sort of HDTV broadcast. It still doesn't help me up in Greeley, but if it gets the ball rolling, I'm all for it.


-Mike
 

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Well I just got back from a business trip to the East coast and while I was waiting in DIA for my long delayed and eventually canceled (due to the snow) flight to Dulles , I amused myself reading some of CARE’s literature which I happen to have shoved into one of the dark recesses of my briefcase: Here are some interesting tidbits:


1. The President of CARE , Dick Bartlett, is some kind of a chief auditor for the IRS. Hmmmm: I would not want to get on the wrong side of this guy. No wonder these guys are winning the war. I would not want CARE to get my Social Security number. (Dick if you are reading this, I’m just kidding!)


2. It seems Bill Coors (who has an 85 acre estate on Lookout Mt. 1.5 miles from the Towers) is currently at odds with CARE. His wife Rita had a wall built on their property to keep trespassers away. It seems this wall blocks the access to some horse trails that CARE has decided are “essential†to the benefit of the neighborhood. Actually some CARE members live nearby and want to get to these horse trails via the Coors’ property. A law suite has ensued and CARE, using their standard mass media propaganda techniques, has nothing good to say about the Coors and are very vocal about this in one of their recent missives. They are especially critical of Bill Coors wife Rita. Hmmmm: I wonder if Bill Coors has an HDTV, he and his wife could be powerful allies in our cause.


3. CARE is appealing Jeffcos permit for FOX 31’s DTV transmitter on Lookout Mt. On Monday April 30 at the Court of Appeals (2 East 14th Avenue in Denver). At 2:30 PM their attorney, Victor Boog will present oral arguments. Could this be the end of FOX HDTV in Denver? (Actually they never started.)


4. CARE is very much “up in arms†about a survey they say the FCC conducted “in secret†to catalog the number of transmitters on Lookout Mt. (Isn’t this the FCC’s job?). Anyway it seems CARE has decided that there is some deep dark devious motive to this FCC survey (CARE calls it “Operation Buffalo Chipsâ€) and they have come to the conclusion that the FCC and the Lake Cedar Group are hatching some kind of a secret plot against CARE. CARE has given this information to “US representatives and to appropriate investigative agenciesâ€. Stay tuned for more information from CARE on this plot by LCG / FCC to take over the world. They also take the FCC to task for ignoring and not taking any major enforcement action against the Broadcasters as a result of Al Hislop’s measurements. (Al says he proved the Broadcaster’s were exceeding RF radiation limits). CARE says†the FCC participated in a joint effort with the LCG to force a digital supertower against the will of the community and the county, while failing in their responsiblies to protect these citizens or looking into alternative solutions†(I don’t think this is the FCC’s job).


5. TintAmerica is running full page adds for their window film products in the local media. In the ad, they state the following “CARE engineers have found that VISTA Window Film can reflect more than 90% of the radio frequency (RF) energy entering homes through windowsâ€.


6. . CARE is very-well connected politically. Their secretary, Charlotte Abel (former secretary for the JeffCo Republican Party) routinely invites the County Commissioners, Representative Witwer and Senator Fitzgerald to attend CARE meetings.



All of the above was published in issue 58 (The Spring 2001 edition ) of “City and Mountain Viewsâ€, a magazine distributed free of charge to residences, stores and restaurants in the Lookout Mt. / Genesee I 70 Corridor. The publisher claims a distribution of 7,000 copies.





[This message has been edited by DougTalley (edited 04-13-2001).]
 

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I think it is important to note that the so-called "CARE’s literature" is not from CARE at all. It is published by an individual who does not speak for CARE. She is a member of CARE, but is NOT CARE.


-Wabisabi


[This message has been edited by wabisabi (edited 04-13-2001).]
 

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Wabisabi:


Most of this information comes from the minutes of the CARE meetings that are published in this journal. Also the WEB site for this journal is a link on the CARE's web site.

 

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DougTalley,


While the information may have originated in a CARE meeting, I think that the "reporter" has the unique ability to hear what she wants. In the same issue (#58, Spring 2001) she states on page 13 that Clear Creek County has 86,000 residents and that Golden has 16,000. In fact, Clear Creek County (including all cities in the county) has less than 10,000 residents. These kinds of mistakes are very common in this publication. Take anything you read in this with a block of salt.


-Wabisabi
 

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Wabisabi:

You are correct "City and Mountain Views" is not an official CARE publication and there is obviously some spin to the reporting. But I think if you will check the record, CARE has never made any effort to correct any inaccuracies or clarify any of the points presented. My issue is that this is the kind of literature that most of the residences of the Lookout Mt. /Genesee I 70 Corridor are seeing and where most people get their information about the Towers and so called "radiation hazards".


Make no mistake about it, I think CARE does some good work in the other areas it is involved in such as the ecological conservation and trying to control the traffic on I 70. But I fail to see the benefit of promoting the idea that the area is polluted with radiation from the Towers. I have spent most of my over 30 year professional career, designing and working around high power RF systems. There have been hundreds of studies investigating the health and safety hazards of electromagnetic radiation and at this point there is the thinnest of evidence that there is even the slightest health hazard at the radiation levels CARE is complaining about. To be sure, there is always new work going on in this area and there will always be scientific mavericks trying to justify their existence by force fitting the data to prove some theory they are promoting. But by an overwhelming majority, the mainstream medical community does not subscribe to any of these views. Even Dr Hamilton, who CARE likes to quote, all he said is that he would like to do more in-depth studies. He did not say that there was any kind of conclusive evidence to support any health hazard from the Towers.


I believe CARE is being misled by this pseudo -scientific nonsense and if they are not careful, people will begin to actually believe that there is a real health threat in this area. The existing Towers are not going away. If CARE wants to keep the real estate values high in this area, the last thing they should do is promote and endorse this concept. To oppose the Towers on esthetic reasons is fine, I can go along with that. But I cannot endorse the (S)CARE tactics.



[This message has been edited by DougTalley (edited 04-14-2001).]
 

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Thanks JMartinko for the "People for Eldorado Mountain" site posting on the last page of the previous thread. (I'm catching up...)


I find it interesting that this organization has chosen to learn from CARE and use the same tactics and arguments, including health related ones:


"Probable health impacts related to long-term exposure to continuous RF electromagnetic emissions will blight the neighboring communities of Plainview, Eldorado Springs, Flagstaff, and Crescent Park."


Even though it's a stretch to claim health effects on Lookout Mountain, it is certainly an even bigger stretch to claim "probable" health effects from more remote Eldorado. But it gets attention!


The site also takes the exact same CARE photos of Lookout and implies that is how Eldorado would look, again a major deception in my view. They seem to be pushing for the towers to be built on the plains "such as Houston, Kansas City and Minneapolis". They also have a link to a Squaw Mountain Communications document, indirectly suggesting that site.


I don't think that a plains solution here has any chance of working with the mountain reflections involved. We have a couple of translators up here on the plains for Denver channels 20 and 31, and the ghosting is so severe that it is very difficult to eliminate them even with a directional antenna--the signal from Lookout is actually superior. I don't know why they have those translators at all.


If Pinnacle made a very compelling argument to the broadcasters (primarily an economic one, I would guess), with some confidence in approval from JeffCo, I suspect the standoff could be broken. But Pinnacle may be using the fact that Lookout & Morrison have been rejected by JeffCo to take more of a monopoly pricing approach.


Anyway, it sounds like KCNC and others are still committed to Lookout. And the fact that they are going for a temporary transmitter suggests that we in Fort Collins will be in the dark for a long time yet.


Mark
 

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According to 'rumors' I have heard, KRMA is likely to sign a contract this week with the owner of the property on Mt. Morrison which will allow them to put the KRMA transmitter with the two associated FM stations on that Mountain. I do not know if there are any new 'zoning' changes that would be required, but we do know that, as with everything else, (S)CARE will be fighting this too. It does make you wonder how those (S)CARE folks get all that energy since they reportedly 'can't sleep at night'. Maybe, if we are all lucky, they will lose their enthusiasm to fight the LCG due to a lack of sleep.


KRMA will likely remain a member of the LCG until the situation on Lookout resolves itself although they may take a less active role. The LCG is currently undergoing 'reorganization' with a new management group. Let's hope they get some more enthusiasm from the local station managers than they have had so far, actually "any" enthusiasm would be helpful at this point. They expect to have a new plan for the Lookout Towers submitted shortly. No word on how many FM stations have agreed or will agree to be included in the plan.


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jm in Boulder
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Geof:
I know you didn't say shorty because that's what you believe, and I know shorty is a relative term, but, the word I got from KCNC is they hope to be ready (to submit plans to JeffCo) by late summer...do you know otherwise?
Actually, I don't think I used the word "shorty", I think I said "shortly". Don't you just love spell checkers. The word I heard during the winter (verbally) from several sources was that they hoped the plan would be ready by around June. Since several of the stations (KCNC and others as I remember) were granted 6 month extensions in November (as I recall, I probably should look that up), I would think they will have to show significant progress on a design to the FCC to obtain another extension in June. I think if the FCC lit a fire under the LCG's butts they could be ready much sooner. If you heard late summer I can't dispute that since no one gave me a firm date, but I would see that some additional foot dragging by the LCG. Late summer sounds like a bit of an attempt to stall some more, but I will give the LCG the benefit of the doubt to slip until then if they at least do all their homework this time (unlike the original submittal). Personally, I do not expect the design to be much different from the one already submitted, maybe just a bit more modest with a little more time spent on the safety factors to prevent a tip over.


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jm in Boulder


[This message has been edited by JMartinko (edited 04-19-2001).]
 

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Guess I shouldn't go on vacations, I must have missed the extensions being granted again. Let's see, Nov. plus six months......I was going to write the FCC to oppose the extension, I guess it is too late now. If the FCC is going to list it as a 'zoning delay' that easily, they might as well just grant them an extension to 2006 and swap the frequencies with the NTSC side. I suspect thanks to those cranky folks (maybe that lack of sleep is causing them to be so cranky) from (S)CARE it will take at least that long.


I just had a thought, since I am losing sleep over the money I have had to spend to establish a Canadian residence and buy new equipment to receive what 'should be' OTA HD, if others are, like me, losing that valuable REM sleep due to the (S)CARE folks, can we petition Jeffco to have the (S)CARE folks zoned off of Lookout? As long as we are at it, the dang traffic noise wakes me up on weekends, if I am losing that valuable sleep can I petition to have the highways in the state closed down too? After all, I hardly ever use most of them. Just because those highways were here when I bought my house doesn't mean they have to stay. "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong" (Dennis Miller).


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jm in Boulder
 

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As a engineer in the business I can state for a FACT that LACK of RF causes lots of sleepless nights <grin>.

Sorry couldn't help it.......



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William Smith

Special Projects Engineer

Division of Technology Development.

KET
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by William Smith:
As a engineer in the business I can state for a FACT that LACK of RF causes lots of sleepless nights <grin>.

Sorry couldn't help it.......

Perhaps you could get the famous Dr. Hoffman to write a report to confirm your theory that lack of sleep is also caused by a lack of RF. Then we can run a contest to see who loses more sleep, the 2000 people on Lookout, or the millions of people in the metro Denver area without DTV television signals from Lookout. Winner take all????


;-)


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jm in Boulder
 

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You know in all serousness, I just wonder if he is tying sleep and RF to the fact people set up at night and watch TV instead of sleeping......



I know that in the past I have lost many of hours of sleep due to something not producing RF and having to recfify that problem!

<grin>



I'll go back to lurking now... Good luck folks!



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William Smith

Special Projects Engineer

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KET
 

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I've been reading this thread for a while, and I guess it is time I de-lurked.


After reading the FCC extension filing, I have two questions:


1) Why would (S)CARE care if the deadline is extended or not? Or are they just trying to oppose everything the stations do?

2) Doesn't it seem, based on the status of all the other cities requesting extensions, that we are going to be the last major city in the US with significant DTV coverage?


ARG!

 
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