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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There is a great deal of information that is being discussed, published, e-mailed and actually shown on this anti-pirate scheme to protect the MPAAs assets. Here is what I have gleamed thus far:


1. Hollywood, via the MPAA does not want the consumer to have access to "native" HDTV. By "native" I mean the current system we have today. They fear pirates will buy inexpensive equipment, record the HDTV image and use this as a Master to copy VHS and DVD's from. They also fear the Internet as a vehicle to steal their assets.


2. There already exists an anti-copy proterction scheme called 5C. It is encrypted in the HDTV bit stream and allows the following:

A. Unlimited Copies

B. Copy Once

C. Never Copy

It also prevents a Digital to Digital copy. Digital to Analog is OK based on A or B.


Now the MPAA has added a fourth scenerio:

D. Never View

This is what has everyone up in arms.


JVC has introduced a system that INITIALLY couples a DVHS VCR with a Display monitor. Both are connected by "firewire" or a Digital Video Interface (DVI) of a sort. This DFAST system requires BOTH the VCR and the MONITOR to have it or no picture. If you attach the DVHS to an existing HDTV set, without the DVI and DFAST, the only image that will be shown is a down converted NTSC 480i image. The 1080i is not accessible without the DVI and the DFAST.


Of the approx. 650,000 HDTV and HDTV Ready sets sold in the last 3 years, NONE have this DVI port, nor the DFAST system. Of the 100,000 STB's sold that receive HDTV and DTV, only the Panasonic 50 and 51 had them and they are no longer available PLUS they did not have the DFAST system, only the DVI port. The same holds true for the 200,000+ FPTV's sold in the last three years.


Now comes the VERY bad news. . . it is being talked about that Cable and DBS will also be required to have the DFAST system. Here is the nightmare scenerio:


I wake up Saturday morning to watch HBO in HDTV on DirecTV. I turn on my DTC100, my Zenith PRO900X, switch to channel 509 and instead of watching "Big Trouble in Little China" in glorious 1080i HDTV, I see a message that says;


"This movie is restricted. You must have DFAST compliant equipment to view it in HDTV. If you do not have DFAST compliant equipment, then press ENTER on your remote and you can view it in 480i". . . NTSC!


The only HDTV that will not be considered for DFAST is OTA.


DFAST appears to be a four part system. The first part starts at the source, the second part is the 5C system, the third part is the receiver and the fourth part is the display.

The 5C system only really pertains to VCR's.


DFAST will make all existing HDTV equipment obsolete! You will be able to buy a converter box that will allow you to attach an Analog display to a new DFAST STB but the only image you will see is NTSC. NO HDTV!


JVC is attempting to make an end run at DVD by introducing HDTV to the consumer on DVHS and allowing the consumer to record HDTV. This new DVHS will play UNCOMPRESSED HDTV pre-recorded DVHS movies. It transferes data at 28 mbps as opposed to 19 for the existing system. Each tpe hold 75 GB which is much greater than DVD or even the proposed HD-DVD. This would provent using the Internet as a medium because the files would be GIGANTIC.


JVC already has 5 studios lined up for this and is rumored to have a warehouse full of HD DVHS movies ready to go.


Oh by the way, the cost of this little beauty is $2,000.00


The only way to see the HDTV image that is on the DVHS tape is to have an HD Monitor with the DFAST DVI.


MY THOUGHTS:


We MUST, I repeat MUST fight this. No One should buy this new JVC product. Not one penny of support should be given to JVC or anyone else who champions DFAST.


We stopped DIVX......we must stop DFAST!


Lee



 

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This link provides some other links to relevent documents concerning this nonsense.

I agree that we must boycott this.


Frank
 

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I fully agree guys. I want to thank both you Lee and Frank for getting this started. I have seen already post on other forums about the evil of this scheme. I also want to thank dpak2000 from this forum also. I think if we stick together we can beat this. 650,000 pissed off people should be

enough to turn the tide. Good Luck.


Kevin C. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

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I used to have fun in Circuit City stores, explaining to the poor salesmen why DivX was going to fail. I think it was somewhat locally effective. Those people are not very well trained, so they learn from their customers.


At that time I had only a small fraction of the outrage I've been building lately. We should all take some time to broadcast our scorn in the electronics stores if any of these things ever hit the street.


Just explain that it's a major new expensive technology whose most important feature is to keep customers from being able to use it. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


That will not, however, help the HDTV roll out. If it's under those terms then I don't care!


"Designed and Patented by Lawyers"


"Viewless & Clueless for the Next Millennium"


- Tom
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Coleman:
650,000 pissed off people should be

enough to turn the tide
Could someone educate me on the source and/or statistical significance of this number, please? (Never mind these poor souls' dysfunctional renal capacity.) TIA!

 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ray,


The 650,000 represents the number of HD ready and HDTV television sets that have already been sold. in actuality, the number is closer to 1,000,000.


All the people who own these set CANNOT, I repeat CANNOT buy the new JVC HDTV DVHS VCR because none of them have the necessary DVI input on their very expensive and brand new television sets. Almost all of the 1 million sets in existence CANNOT, I repeat again, CANNOT be upgraded to have this special DVI installed.


These 1 million souls bought HD equipment thinking it would last them for years (10 to 15). Many will get the necessary HD STB when prices fall below $300. But if DFAST is implemented on DirecTV HD and DISH HD, they will not be able to see HDTV from DBS. The only alternative is OTA HDTV and many can't receive the broadcasts so they will never see HDTV.


If you go out tomorrow and buy a new Phillips 64" HDTV set for $6,000, this set may become obsolete in less than 1 year!


Do you think this is right? To please the MPAA?


The HELL with the MPAA!


Lee

 

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Just out of curiosity, how does JVC expect to sell this VCR if there are no displays out there it can connect to? Or are there a ton of competitively priced displays waiting to flood the market with DVI DFAST connections? Why would anyone who owns a current HDTV buy this, ignoring for the moment the whole copy protection controversy, if it can't connect to their display? I am all for a boycott, but I think most of us would "boycott" this VCR even without DFAST because none of us have DVI.


--Andrew
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Andrew,


The only HDTV set that will have the DFAST DVI port is their up and coming D'ILA based RPTV. The VCR and the RPTV will list for $8,000. If this is successful, then other CE manufacturers will also support DFAST.


Lee


STOP DFAST...Do Not Support JVC!
 

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Trust me folks there is not a snowball's chance in hell that this DFAST scheme will have any more success than did DIVX. We 650,000 early adopters are mostly affluent and smart and know a hare-brained con game when we see it. Think about it...who is JVC going to sell these proposed products to if not us? Do they think Joe Sixpack is going to pay 3 grand for a DFAST-enabled HDTV and plunk down another 2 grand for a DVHS deck that plays pre-recorded HD movies? Get real!


[This message has been edited by RickD_99 (edited 01-10-2001).]
 

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I don't see why someone would make a converter box that looks like a monitor with DFAST to the DVHS and then passes the image on to the digital tv as a component or RGB signal. It wouldn't be that hard to implement. It would mean an additional cost but would prevent the TV from becoming obsolete.
 

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The only HDTV that will not be considered for DFAST is OTA.


Lee: It gets worse. ABC has publicly stated that they are considering copy-protection encryption for their OTA broadcasts (as has ESPN - both ABC and ESPN are Disney-owned (Disney was one of the original promulgators of DIVX)).


Of course, the worst part of this has nothing to do with the VCR. As you've pointed out, since the orignal broadcasts will be encrypted, if you don't have a HDCP-compliant display and STB, no HDTV! And never mind the $2000 HD RPTVs that will be obseleted - can you imagine having just spent $50,000 on a brand-new top of the line Sony G90 and Faroudja DVP 5000 processor, and find out that it will be -useless- for viewing HD material!!! (Not that I've spent 50k, but we can dream can't we http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif )


It also goes without saying that this scheme will also prevent anyone that was planning on getting started in HD with a computer HD card and monitor from viewing it either. I'd say that considering that no projector or computer monitor ever produced will be able to access these encoded broadcasts, the number of obseleted units approaches 100 million. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Rajjneef,


This is much deeper than the ability to copy HDTV in your home...for home use only.


DFAST involves VIEWING HDTV in your home.


If DFAST is successful then it will be implemented on HD-VCRs, HD-STBs for DBS, HD-Cable Boxes, HD-DVD players and recorders...EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that can be HDTV sourced with the exception of HDTV OTA.


If DFAST is successful, you might wake up one morning and find out that the only way to watch HDTV is to BUY A NEW DFAST Compliant HDTV set and a NEW DFAST Compliant HDTV STB. You would have to buy BOTH!


We must stop DFAST...DO NOT SUPPORT JVC!


lEE
 

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Lee:

Not that I would ever consider buying into this DFAST scheme, but would a DFAST-enabled DVHS be able to record and play sources in 1080i

or would it essentially be a play-only device as far as HD is concerned?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Craig,


The PURPOSE of DFAST is to STOP us, the consumer, from getting access to the 720P/1080i via the Analog Outputs (RGB/VGA/Component). The only signal coming out of the analog outputs will be good old 50 year old 480i NTSC.


This is the purpose of DFAST.


There will be NO Converter boxes because a converter box will defeat the purpose of having DFAST in the first place.


Lee


RICK,


The new JVC HD DVHS is a VCR. It will play UNCOMPRESSED HD DVHS tapes at 1080i and it will record compressed HDTV at 1080i


As Long as you have the matching DFAST Monitor


STOP DFAST....DO NOT SUPPORT JVC


[This message has been edited by LeeAntin (edited 01-10-2001).]
 

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Lee:

Not that I would ever consider buying into this DFAST scheme, but would a DFAST-enabled DVHS be able to record and play sources in 1080i

or would it essentially be a play-only device as far as HD is concerned?



In theory, you would be able to record and play back 1080i material, but in practice, forget it. It should be noted that the agenda behind DFAST has nothing to do with protecting against piracy - and everything to do with enforcing a DIVX scheme by fiat. Hollywood has always wanted the consumer to pay for each view of their material - the Sony BetaMax Supreme Court case stole their thunder. With the help of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, the MPAA has re-gained the upper hand, and it is highly likely that "copy never" will be the default setting for all encrypted PPV and Premium-Service movie channels in the very near future.


Say goodbye to time-shifting....
 

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I am putting my money where my mouth is. Until further notice, no JVC products will enter my home.


JVC has a PR nightmare brewing. They better get at it and tell us what this all really means.


They should learn from the past, i.e. software copy protection, DIVX, prohibition, CSS. These schemes are doomed to failure.


And if Disney thinks they can scramble signals on the public airwaves they are sadly mistaken. Can you say Senate Hearings?


A Boycott is appropriate.


John.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by dkeller_NC:

It should be noted that the agenda behind DFAST has nothing to do with protecting against piracy - and everything to do with enforcing a DIVX scheme by fiat.
Bingo! I've been racking my brain for weeks trying to figure out why in the hell the MPAA cares about an analog Y/Pb/Pr signal that can't possibly be copied perfectly being sent to my analog set. It's DIVX in disguise!


I suggest we all start writing our friends on the Hill like Senator McCain and Rep. Tauzin before this gets out of hand.

 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
DKELLER,


THANK YOU for clarifying the motivation behind DFAST. I have been in such a rage since I finally understood what DFAST meant to me....$20,000 worth of HDTV equipment that took me years of saving to buy and I might not be able to see HDTV!


I had waited 10 years for HDTV. I had seen hundreds of HDTV demos in that 10 years period and I knew one thing and one thing only...I HAD TO HAVE HDTV!


Now the greedy MPAA with the initial support of JVC wants to take away my ability to SEE HDTV, let alone the ability to record HDTV.


We cannot get Congress involved in DFAST nor the FCC. Their only control is OTA. DVHS,DBS,DVD are all "private" and have nothing to do with the government. We could stop it on OTA, but OTA didn't seem to be earmarked for DFAST...until I read the above post regarding ABC.


AND with the implementatiion of the 5C anti-copy system, as has been pointed out, you may never be able to record HDTV!


Lee


STOP DFAST...DON NOT SUPPORT JVC!
 
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