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The Panamorphs are now shipping. Robert Wood has graciously posted a picture taken with the LT150 (an off axis projector) and the Panamorph. I see some "obvious" problems with the image that maybe, just maybe, can be ameliorated with masking.


I have complained vociferously that we tend to blow things out of all proportion on this forum. Am I out to lunch with respect to this? Am I being hypocritical?


The powers to be have had a look at this thing and nobody, and I mean nobody, mentioned the distortion problems with off axis projectors (that I can recall)- the majority, I believe, of the target market! How is this possible!! Did nobody test this lens with a common run-of-the-mill off axis projector? On the Davis thread Shawn stated with respect to the distortion - "That looks about right". ?????? AlanG has stated that everyone will be happy with the Panamorph! Did I miss something? Was this common knowledge and I am just a space cadet?


Shawn mentioned a fix for this. What I would like to know is; how effective a fix, how costly, and how long?


I have three options: - a) ask for my money back; b) accept delivery and do my best to "make" it work; and c) accept delivery and use it with a 16:9 on axis projector (for 2.35:1) when I get one.


I keep thinking that maybe the money is better spent on a 16:9 projector - this is starting to look like a band-aid solution - it's an expensive band-aid in Canadian funds!


The problem wasn't whether or not the Panamorph would ship. The problem was that it did!


Am I just being a reactionary here?


Cheers,


Grant


P.S. Mr. Wigggles where are you when we need you?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Grant Smyth:

P.S. Mr. Wigggles where are you when we need you?
He said that he would be back when he got his P752. I assume that he hasn't received it yet.



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I think this development will send Wiggles to a bigger rock even farther away. Optics is a big part of his business too, as I understand it, and this would drive him crazy.


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Joe


"Well, it didn't look like a two-horse town, but try finding a decent hair jelly."
 

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I am also a little astounded that this has happened (especially considering that Shawn seems so well versed in optics how did this glaring problem not be addressed) and also that no one is really screaming about it...


I am in an even worse position in that I purchased another prebuy spot at an extreme premium to get it fast the day before this image problem was posted... So I don't even have the ability to take a refund without loosing out !!!


I am really pulling for Shawn (as I have been all along) but the site has been down for days and they can seem to get that back up... The glass components ran out after producing only a token number of Pannies and the schedule is just slipping faster than an avalanche...


I had thought once they got it in house the problems would go away... Then after the conventions... Then ???


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I never understood the excitement about the panamorph. The additional 25% more pixels are nice, but really only a marginal improvement. The added barrel distortion is expected. I will be happy with my XGA resolution until 1600 x 1200 and/or 1920 x 1200 comes out. I see the added brightness as more important than the added resolution, because DVD's don't have that much resolution to begin with. With HDTV material, that's a different story.
 

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there's a huge difference in scaling 480p to 576p versus 768p. On our screen sizes the difference is quite noted.


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/frode
 

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What are the optical specifications of the Mits X100 OEM that are pertinent to this discussion? I ask because that is the projector that was used at the Panamorph Party and it would be interesting to know if we all just missed the video aberration when we were there. We didn't use a test pattern. RGB, can you look at your photos and gauge if you see anything now with the knowledge that we have?

Thanks!



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Tryg,


What do you mean it doesnt do a real 16x9? Is that true for all projectors, or only those with off axis projectors? I have read that it works perfectly with the Dila. Is that true?
 

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It should (Jesus it had better) be able to do a 1.78 compression for the minority of users that have edge aligned or on axis projectors but even then I have not had a good explanation as to why the 'lowest' edge does not suffer more compression than the direct (on axis) edge..


I am guessing it is too minor to be bothered with but it has still not been refuted... Also Alan posted that we where going to get some pics a while back to show how fine it was with a DILA but they never showed up (Alan ??) as well as another brand that Alan was taking home with him that night...


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I am/was amazed when folks got their Panamorphs and posted messages here saying:


1) They were leaking oil, and many have a bubble in the oil!?!?! I'm amazed they are not 100% optical devices with glass lenses. For $600.000 I would not have expected this.


2) All sorts of odd distortion problems; probably enhanced by the fact that these devices do not use 100% glass, or even plastic lenses.


3) That there would/could even be the slightest problems with these devices after the extensive delays in shipping. This one really amazes me..


When I first heard about this device and the pre-buy for a non-existent product, it looked to me as if it COULD be some sort of sham.


I guess that now since everyone has received their pre-purchased devices I was wrong about it being a sham, but it still sort of reminds me of the stuff we used to buy as kids from the back of comic books, and Rolling Stone that looked fantastic in the ads, but turned out to be much, much less then we expected when we finally got it in our hands http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


-- Cain


 

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They were just regular guys, trying to get a new product off the ground, betting on the come, hoping they could do it, failing to foresee some of the difficulties, and now trying to fix the problems and not have it blow up in their faces in this very public way. That was the risk of taking the "pre-buy" money for the R&D rather than just doing it themselves and then introducing it. They probably thought you guys would cut them some slack because you were on the team. But patience wears thin, and you probably feel like you loaned money to a "friend" who doesn't come to visit anymore.


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Joe


"Well, it didn't look like a two-horse town, but try finding a decent hair jelly."
 

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Unfortunately, everyone on prebuys have NOT got lenses. I'm not even certain the first-prebuy has been filled. For certain, the second has not because I'm on that one.


All indications are that it works fine for D-ILA. There may be a number of other projectors it doesn't work so hot on, such as the LT150 and the Davis/Davis clones. If I ever get mine, I'll test it on the Sanyo/Boxlight and report the results. If it doesn't work well, I should be able to sell it to a D-ILA owner.


BTW Joe, DUH! I didn't tell the Quadscan it was receiving 16:9 from the DVD player. That's why I didn't get the right output even though I set output for 4:3. But that's OK, I learned something really neat about the projector in the process.


Dan


[This message has been edited by DanHouck (edited 09-05-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Humey:
Tryg,


What do you mean it doesn't do a real 16x9? ?
I don't want to panick anybody with innuendo or rumors, this is what I mean.


From what I know P751 requires tilting the projector or other manipulation to acheive exact 1.777777 AR. As written here. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/006748.html


The P752 claims to be able to achieve this without projector tilt but needs keystoning correction to be accurate. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/006794.html


unless I'm reading this wrong only a DILA (which appears to be the only projector that for sure works without distortion(center axis)) can do it but since it has NO keystoning correction even it's resulting picture is not completely accurate(excluding the barrrel distortiones etc).


So I will ask you guys. Can any of the Panamorph provide a true 16:9 aspect ratio without some optical distortion that would result in an accurate 16:9 compressed image(excluding the other optical distortions like pincusion/barrel)?


If I'm wrong on this, please tell me and I will correct my statements.

 

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Cain,


It's basic optics as to why you can't have a 100% glass -

or any other single refractive material.


A 100% glass prism Panamorph would not only compress the

image - it would also split it up into the colors of the

rainbow!!! See:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question41.htm


The Panamorph HAS to be made with multiple materials each

with a different refractive index in order to do the

color correction.


Dr. Gregory Greenman

Physicist
 

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Tryg,


If you are willing to accept the additional downward

displacement of the entire picture [ in a high, inverted

D-ILA configuration ] so that the projector is not tilted -

then you can get a 16:9 image without keystone.


It's only when you tilt the projector so that it is again

"edge aligned" with the image - that you get keystoning.

This is an issue for those who have already mounted the

projector and screen prior to getting the Panamorph.


However, if one knew they were getting a Panamorph before

the screen and projector were setup - then one could then

incorporate the additional vertical displacement into the

plan.


Dr. Gregory Greenman

Physicist

 

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I do not like to provide negative feedback on anyone, especially if they are trying to build a business. Also if your product works as stated I will usually be one of the first to sing high praises.


However, something needs to be done by AVS staff regarding the Panamorph. Here's the facts.


1. Shawn has said repeatedly the product is shipping when its not.

2. If Cygnus can't provide proper information about their product or communication they should be banned from this forum(or at least not supported by AVS forum admins)

3. Cygnus stop misrepresenting your PRODUCT! I doesn't do true 16:9. Furthermore it has optical and mechanical deficiencies. Tell the customer this! I don't expect every product to work perfectly but I do expect a professional lense company to outright tell you the limitations of the product(especially with a $1000+ price tag).


I will probably be banned or censored for speaking upon this (I hope I will not on this) but this is behaviour by a company that should not be supported or tolerated.

 
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