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Sorry if this has been discussed in another thread. Does anyone else have a comment on the Fox NFL widescreen coverage having severe digital artifacts problem? It looks like I am watching a silent film transfer. Is there some frame rate issue?
 

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I also noticed a lot of MPEG artifacting on fast motion & rapid scene changes.


You would think that the low resolution of 480p would mean that they wouldn't have these problems within the 19Mbps ATSC allows. I wonder where the problem is.
 

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I noticed it here too, but thought it was our upconvertor since we changed it out Wednesday..Guess not..
 

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Today's game looked much worse than last Sunday's 480p game. At first I thought something was wrong...then I remembered it was FOX I was watching!! ;) It looked pretty bad actually. After watching it last Sunday, I was stunned that someone posted here that it looked almost like HD & thought it might even be HD. It is not even in the same universe! Not close. Obviously that person had either a bad setup for their HDTV & didn't really know what an HDTV football game looked like or they have never seen one because there is simpley no way it could be confused. All ya need to do is watch a CBS college game & it will blow away those Fox NFL games.
 

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The high sideline camera looked like it was at a lower effective frame rate than the others, for some reason. Anyone else notice that?
 

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I am with Dweezilz. I think most of the people that make a big deal about FOX football must not have seen an SEC CBS game. There is simply no comparison. There was alot of blurring of the action. I do agree that the Packers Bucs game was much better quality - but after you watch a true high def game do you really care whether it is 480i or 480p?? I just patiently wait till we see some true NFL HDTV. I can't wait to see some of the upcoming college bball in high def!
 

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Snide comparisons of HDTV aside, I didn't notice any improvement between Thanksgiving FOX WS and standard FOX-DT Analog upconverts.... There was slight improvement between last weeks Rams/Skins(WS) and Texans/Giants(4:3) though.......


If FOX can cut the EE or whatever technical terms you want use for it, it'll improve the picture tenfold.....
 

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I didn't see this game, but I have it on good authority that the descriptions of severe artifacts in this particular game are accurate.
 

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At first I thought I was seeing things, but, I'm quite sure I actually noticed some compression artifacts via an analog station OTA, which I had to watch since my local Fox Digital that does Fox widescreen is/was off the air.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Nitewatchman
At first I thought I was seeing things, but, I'm quite sure I actually noticed some compression artifacts via an analog station OTA, which I had to watch since my local Fox Digital that does Fox widescreen is/was off the air.
The analog station uses the same feed as the digital. It is a center cut of the widescreen image. You did see those same artifacts in the analog feed, because they were in the feed coming from the game.
 

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Spwace,


Yes, thanks to previous posts in other threads by yourself and others(info which is very helpful BTW, thanks), I am aware that the same feed is used.


Just wanted to point out that this was not an issue which affected only the digital widescreen broadcast.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by spwace
...I have received confirmation that the PQ was very poor...


...You did see those same artifacts in the analog feed, because they were in the feed coming from the game.
Quote:
Originally posted by bdfox18doe
I noticed it here too, but thought it was our upconvertor since we changed it out Wednesday..Guess not..



Garbage in, garbage out: Fox High Resolution Widescreen.


It would appear that, in their heart of hearts, the affiliate engineers do agree with us.;) :eek:


Let's hope such candor doesn't cost 'em their jobs... :rolleyes:
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by tmitchmd
Garbage in, garbage out: Fox High Resolution Widescreen.


It would appear that, in their heart of hearts, the affiliate engineers do agree with us.;) :eek:


Let's hope such candor doesn't cost 'em their jobs... :rolleyes:
My agreement applies to this game only, which is not representative of the games to this point.


I knew my acknowledgment of the poor quality of this game would be taken out of context by some of the more vocal FOX bashers.


Congratulations tmitchmd, for being the first in line.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by spwace
I didn't see this game, but...
Quote:
Originally posted by spwace
My agreement applies to this game only, which is not representative of the games to this point.
Want to have it both ways, eh?



Well, I did see the FWS Thanksgiving Day and SuperBowl broadcasts. Both sucked.


So have all the other FWS games, according to most non Fox affiliate engineer eyes on this forum.


So which 'representative' games are you referring to exactly?:rolleyes:
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by tmitchmd
Want to have it both ways, eh?



Well, I did see the FWS Thanksgiving Day and SuperBowl broadcasts. Both sucked.


So have all the other FWS games, according to most non Fox affiliate engineer eyes on this forum.


So which 'representative' games are you referring to exactly?:rolleyes:
I acknowledged the fact that I didn't see the game, but I was told by a member of my engineering staff that the quality was very poor.


The representative games are those from the preceding weeks. I thought that was obvious.


You seem to have a habit of quoting people out of context, in way that strengthens your point and changes the meaning of what was originally said.


Here is a quote from you. I don't believe this quote is out of context.

Quote:
That said, I was able to compare the Fox feed with that of my OTA analog affiliate, both at 4:3 and a zoomed 16:9 aspect ratio.


Comparisons were made on a Panasonic DT-M3050W studio HD broadcast monitor.


There is no question that the NON line doubled NTSC analog broadcast presented better overall detail and color with an absence of digital artifact. It was simply a much more watchable picture.
It is interesting that the analog feed had an "absence of digital artifact", because those artifacts were in the feed that was used for both the digital and analog feeds. That fact was also confirmed by that same member of my engineering staff and has been pointed by others on this forum.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by spwace
It is interesting that the analog feed had an "absence of digital artifact", because those artifacts were in the feed that was used for both the digital and analog feeds. That fact was also confirmed by that same member of my engineering staff and has been pointed by others on this forum.
Hold on there Bucko.


If the broadcast director was forced to watch that garbage from the trailer they would still be scraping the puke from the walls.


The raw feed that goes out to the affiliates most assuredly does not go through the same process of MPEG compression as the 480p you are spewing.


I have seen the analog 4:3 C-band feeds of several games also simulcast as FWS, and these mpeg compression artifacts most assuredly are not present.


Standing invitation for this or any other Sunday afternoon in December:


Come over to my house and check out the various Fox feeds from analog OTA, analog C-band Sunday Ticket, DBS, and FWS.

I guarantee that given the choice of FWS or analog zoomed 16:9, most non Fox affiliate engineer eyes will prefer the analog feed...
 

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For Clarification,


I was watching the analog OTA broadcast on a $250 RCA 27" 4x3 analog TV. (No line doubling used). The digital artifacts were present and quite noticable via the local Fox affiliate I was watching, which is very unusual.


I haven't noticed a problem with digital artifacts during NFL from Fox on previous occasions, via either the analog or the ED widescreen broadcast, the latter of which is upconverted to 1080i by my local Fox affiliate.


When my local Fox digital affiliate is on the air and is processing the feed correctly for digital broadcast, the PQ for the ED stuff(even superbowl) looks roughly equivilent to 480p DVD IMO. Which makes sense. I don't know what it looks like on "your" local Fox Digital(or analog) affiliate, I wouldn't even attempt to venture a guess.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by tmitchmd
Hold on there Bucko.


If the broadcast director was forced to watch that garbage from the trailer they would still be scraping the puke from the walls.


The raw feed that goes out to the affiliates most assuredly does not go through the same process of MPEG compression as the 480p you are spewing.
Whatever happened to that feed, happened between the venue and the FOX center in LA.

I know this for two reasons.
  1. The problem was noticed nationwide.
  2. The artifacts weren't present in the commercials or cut-ins from LA.[/list=1]

    There is no raw feed to the affiliates from the game. Everything goes to LA and then to the affiliates.
 

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One thing I noticed in addition to the artifacts people are talking about is that certain camera angles looked much worse than others, with extremely washed-out color.
 

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In my market Fox runs only at 480 P and never above that on any broadcast, at any time. I thought that was a national deal on Fox at this point and my TV tells me all the signals and it always says that on Fox broadcasts. ABC is rarely HD although they will go from 720P to 1080i but not both ways so not true HD as of yet, and NBC does HD and so does CBS.


Is that not the case in your market, or were you just assuming it was HD? I am pretty upset that CBS is the only one taking it real serious, as I am a Big12 guy and the darn SEC plays on CBS, while I get 720P on ABC almost all the time.


MY TV says something weird when it reads the Fox signal it says:


480 p [email protected] 59 and I have no idea what all those numbers mean but the key is 480P, the lowest of all major channels. I would assume yours is the same as I live in Houston, the 4th largest city and we are on the top 20 city plan.
 
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