dila/whites

I've never been real thrilled with the whites on my G11. They just ain't white.


There's a few things to consider, though.


If you use a grey screen, as most of us do, that WILL change the look of white. My DIY screen was painted half white, half grey, to compare the difference. In my situation, the whites took on just a tad of yellow shade with the grey screen. Obviously, the grey screen does great things for blacks and contrast.


Then there's the issue of white level settings. We have so many ways to adjust this(projector user settings, Dilard wizard, PC video card, etc.), it can be real confusing sometimes.


I spent hours the other night going back and forth between my modified Dilard black level settings and the original projectors black level settings. The modified setting is what I'll stick with because of the much improved contrast I see, but it comes at the cost of putting a little noise in lighter colors, especially white. I actually see a bit of pink and green blooming(for lack of better term)in some really bright scenes. It's barely noticable, and probably correctable by fine tuning the mod in Dilard. But what I really think is that we need the rest of the Dilard wizards(gamma and 8 Bar)to bring everything together. The Black Level Wizard is just one piece of the puzzle. We need the other pieces. Hint, hint. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


I use a twin view setup, so when I have my monitor on at the same time as the G11, that's when I really see a difference. In fact, I use the monitor as sort of a test screen for color, contrast and brightness adjusting on the G11. Compared to the monitor, the proper white and grey have been really hard for me to duplicate.


My G11 is not calibrated, BTW. I'd be willing to bet that would make huge improvements, based on recent comments here on the forum.


Chris

Chris


My uncalibrated G-15 using dilard on a grayhawk now looks quite good. After making the black level adjustments I increased the gamma settings in the ATI player.


Initially I also saw some color aberrations which almost seemed to be a color version of the posterization comments others made regarding their jvc calibrations. This was adjusted out using higher rgb settings than what I first ended up with when I used dilard. Also upping the gamma may have helped this particular aspect of color rendering.


IMHO we need more direction either from Mark or others in order to properly adjust these settings before the next dilard release. If we haven't gotten a handle on this adjustment layering more possibilities on top exponentially increases our errors. I guess thats why William gets the bucks. Although I haven't seen the full possibilities of dilard the more I see the more I think I'll be using William one day.


Last night we watched Men of Honor and I must say the image now looks terrific. I'm convinced that dilard turns down the bias way too much on the G and B. But us tweakaholics gotta love it!


Rick

Rick,


The way I see it is:


You wouldn't send your G15 to Wm to have it calibrated and only have him do the black level settings, then send it back to you. He would do the complete calibration. Gamma, 8 Bar and I'm sure other adjustments.


We're making changes to the black level, but nothing else. At this point in time anyway. Changing the black is indeed throwing off other parameters of the projector, like gamma.


I think we NEED to have the gamma and 8 Bar wizards to complete the circle.


Will it be as good as the calibrations done by Wm and others? Probably not, but I'd sure like to see a side by side comparison just to see how big the difference would be.



I'm very, very tempted to send my G11 to have it calibrated. I know it would be an excellent decision, but............I've been so very pleased with the way Mark Hunter has contributed to this forum, and his quest for DILA perfection and simplicity, that I'm going to hang in there and wait for the rest of the wizards. He has helped so many of us so many times.


Besides, I think he'd be the first to admit that the wizards won't or wouldn't do quite the right job for our calibration needs. If that ever is the case, then I'll send in my G11.


Any of you guys that have a calibrated Gxx care to comment on the difference in whites before and after?

Chris

CCLAY,


I agree with you 100%. I am seeing the same strange hot whites and hot yellows and greens now that we have the first piece of the dilard puzzle.


I have switched back and forth from my original settings to my adjusted black settings, and prefer the newer darker settings despite the obvious and bad affect it has had on the colors in some areas.


I have also noticed that CBS seems to be very 'hot' in my terms, with the whites and colors. Watching the final four and the Masters was very nice with the blacker blacks, but I noticed the hot over powering whites and slight discoloration in white as well. Everything seems oversaturated and the bottom end near black is now definitely crushed. I think that the top end is crushed as well. When calibrating it with the wizard, I actually had to take the red setting down another 5-6% from where the band just disappeared in dilard to help out with the red tinge in bright whites.


We do have only one piece of the puzzle, and I knew it was going to happen as soon as finished my first pass with the black level wizard. Gamma is way off now, though the higher contrast ratio is so enticing I can't force myself to switch back.


I too have thought about sending my G11 to William. Actually I had it arranged with him for just after Super Bowl, but decided that I would wait for Mark's software and the ability to do it myself at home. Shipping this thing across the country scares me. I think that as good as Mark's helps are in the black wizard (and they really are great Mark), I need a little more background information to adjust this thing properly. One question I certainly have is relates to the final setting of white. What is actually going on here, and could this scaling factor be causing some of the issues we are seeing?


I think that the gamma and 8-bar wizards will definitely help - and can't wait to see if I can get the colors correct now.


Brian


------------------

Our Home Theater - http://www.fatbulldog.com

Wow, Chris:

Quote:
<blush>. Thanks for the nice write up, Chris. I am humbled.



I suppose that deserves a little update to answer the hidden questions buried within...


The Black Level Wizard really should really not exist on it's own at all. Without the Gamma Correction Wizard (and even the 8 bar Wizard), the Black Level Wizard may improve the black level at the expense of other areas of the projector.


However, the last time that I wanted to wait to release something that was complete, I received an Inbox full of "We want to try it anyway...just in case it helps". So, I put the Black Level Wizard into the 2.0 release even though the Gamma Correction Wizard is still in the shop.


I was surprised to hear how many people really got a kick out of improving the black level! I guess it was a good idea to release it after all (although my support load went up quite a bit as everyone tried to figure out what it does and exactly how to use it!).


However, in general, a good suggestion would be to wait until the Gamma Correction Wizard gets paired with the Black Level Wizard for optimal results.


In fact, we are working on building the "Projector Self Calibration Wizard". I can't give away all of the details just yet, lest our competitors get the information, but let me just say that the D-ILA projectors have all of the guts and hardware that they need to calibrate themselves! Sound crazy? I understand. I would be skeptical, too.


Remember that many folks said that the Image Geometry Wizard wasn't going to be possible either...


The only thing that I'm worried about is getting all of the components developed for a commercial-ready product before everyone loses interest!

Chris and Mark


My uncalibrated, except bias level by me, G-15 does look better than it ever has as a result of dilard. I get a kick feeling that I was able to increase the visual value of this projector.


But, and Mark please correct me if I'm wrong, the next iteration of dilard will include the 8 bar wizard and everthough we'll be able to perform calibrations with the wizard, it will best be used with instrumentation, expensive instrumentation.


If the only way to perfect the presentation of the G-XX is to use expensive instrumentation many of us will be contacting William.


I can't wait for each version of dilard and I feel that I'm getting my money's worth and then some, but I think the well outfitted dila projector will have dilard and Williams calibration.


Rick


On the dilard 2.1 faq it states something to the effect that the 8 bar wizard can be run in a noninstrumented fashion or with optional external instrumentation. I'm assuming this optional instrumentation is not something I can get at radio shack. Still I very much look forward to playing with these tools.


[This message has been edited by rick e (edited 04-11-2001).]

Spill all the beans, or keep mouth shut??????????

Spill all the beans, or keep mouth shut??????????


Wonder where that colorimeter thread disappeared to???


To do 8 bar with any spectrometer regardless of price

is very very close to impossible. You need a fiber probe

small enough to measure one pixel. On a 100 inch screen

thats still less than .1 inch. Then you have to accurately

position that fiber across 8 pixels.


The 8 bar is definitely one of those do it by hand and use

the old eyeball.


[This message has been edited by kevin gilmore (edited 04-12-2001).]

Mark


I find the "it might take an hour" warning quite amusing. Setting the bias on my dila took a week and I'm still not done. But I have enjoyed what dilard has allowed me to learn about my projector.


I can't wait, my eyes are salivating at the thought of the future richness of what is already a terrific image.


Thank You Mark


Rick McGee

Quote'

"Spill all the beans, or keep mouth shut.

Spill all the beans, or keep mouth shut.

Wonder where that colorimeter thread disappeared to???

To do 8 bar with any spectrometer regardless of price

is very very close to impossible. You need a fiber probe

small enough to measure one pixel. On a 100 inch screen

thats still less than .1 inch. Then you have to accurately

position that fiber across 8 pixels."



I must've missed something.


Chris

Chris,


The 8 bar refers to eight column drivers in the ILA panels. There is one for pixels 1, 9, 17...a second one for pixels 2, 10, 18...etc. There are a total of 8 drivers, and each of them takes 1/8 of the total # of pixels.


If they don't all track equally, you can get some annoying vertical lines in the picture. All 8 of them have to be set correctly for the picture to appear D-ILA silky smooth. Actually, to be precise, there are 8 for each of R, G & B in both high and low ranges for a total of 8*3*2 = 48 possible adjustments.


If they aren't set correctly, the vertical lines can appear.


Kevin was just mentioning that in order to have an instrumented Wizard that corrects for this anomaly, you would need to use a fiber optic probe that is less than the size of a pixel to take a measurement...and it would have to be an accurate one, too.


Even if you had such a probe, you would still have to position it on the correct pixel, which would be difficult.


To make a long story short, there is no "automatic 8 bar Wizard". This will need to be done by eye, as it always has.


[This message has been edited by milori (edited 04-12-2001).]