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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Papa,


Thanks for asking.


The Dilard Gamma Wizard is about 80% complete today, and has worked my G11's Gamma several times now. The release of this Wizard was temporarily paused while the Colorfacts product was completed.


Colorfacts is the tool that I am using to evaluate the effectiveness of how well the Gamma Wizard is doing. Now that Colorfacts does a complete grayscale analysis referenced to the D65 white point (not just 6500 Kelvin), it is at the point where it can be used to show how well the Dilard Gamma Wizard works, and will allow the Gamma Wizard to be the best it can be.


Development should turn back to completion of this Wizard soon...
 

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Clearly Mark doesn't want to give a date and miss it (obvious cheap shot at other companies omited http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif ), but I'd guess from his tone that the end of August would be an optimistic time frame...


Mark, don't comment once if you agree, don't comment twice if you disagree... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Mike



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That Milori is a cagey fellow. He hasn't commented three times already!


- m


[This message has been edited by mblank (edited 07-15-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by mblank:
That Milori is a cagey fellow. He hasn't commented three times already!
LOL.


Thanks for the info, Mark. If you're taking votes, mine is for something that's merely "pretty good," and I'm happy to wait until release three for something that's "the best it can be." http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


-Sloth
 

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Discussion Starter #6
<LOL>!


You guys are quite good...and sometimes quite tough!


You sure know how to put someone's feet to the fire if they aren't delivering...I've seen it happen!


To be honest, I actually did tell you most of what I know. There is only the final development and testing of the Gamma Wizard left. Colorfacts turned into a bigger testing suite than I expected, but I now trust it even more in my own work because of its comprehensiveness.


I can try "lunatic fringe" ideas that I would never consider shipping to a customer (like simultaneously setting the bias, gain and gamma settings at the same time based on the colorimetric data) and Colorfacts will let me know the results of those experiments.


Most of the time, you just can't shortcut the process of doing the adjustments one-after-the-other (black level first, gain and peak white to D65 second, gamma third). It is interesting learning nonetheless, and the feedback loop is quite small (Run the prototype Dilard code, then check it with Colorfacts). I would love to have the entire Dilard calibration of the projector be possible in 15-20 minutes, FULLY automated.


However, I have to realize that the investment adds up to some REAL R&D, and the D-ILA market just isn't big enough to justify the cost of it. That doesn't mean that it can't be done with less R&D...it just means that the process may take a little longer than 15 minutes, and may only be SEMI automated (with a person clicking on buttons at the appropriate decision points within a Wizard).


Keep in mind that everything has been built from the ground-up for the specific purposes that they were intended. I won't mention any other companies or individuals, but we have not rebranded or modified an existing system for either the Dilard or Colorfacts solutions. They have designed from the ground floor for doing just what they do the best that they can.


It does take a little longer to build everything from the groud up, but I think that in the end, the quality really shows. I don't have a specific release date for the Wizard, as I really like the ID software approach to software releases (as opposed to the Microsoft approach).


I don't think that users like the ID approach much initially, but ID's customers are far happier than Microsoft's customers in the "Quality" rating in the long run. In a nutshell, ID's release date is always:

"The software is released when it is polished, debugged and ready for delivery"


Whereas Microsoft software delivery dates are:

"Oct. 25, 2001 (Windows XP). Ready or not, bugs and all."


Of course, Microsoft usually has a "Service Pack" ready within a few weeks of the release date. ID software never does.


I think that your estimates are good ones, but they are just estimates. Personally, I'm still holding out hope that I can get the Wizard released before you get a real Panamorph in your hands. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Tom,


You won't necessarily need Colorfacts if you use the Dilard calibration Wizards, unless you want to "check up" on how the Wizard did. Colorfacts displays graphs of the grayscale, brightness uniformity, RGB balances, black level, contrast, etc.


Dilard does all of those things "behind the scenes" (quietly), and doesn't need a person to watch. In fact, you can leave the room completely while the gamma is adjusted. You will notice the improvement in the picture, but won't know all of the numeric data that went into it.


Recaps>


Dilard will be analogous to shipping the projector away to be calibrated (or be "modded", as the case may be). You get it back, and the picture looks great! You don't know the specifics of how that happened...just that it is a big improvement, and that you like the picture. Easy and relatively painless.


However, Dilard will not (can not) do anything physical to the projector. Sometimes a professional calibrator will find that they need to open up the projector and adjust the quarter-wave plates in order to maximize the contrast. If your projector's quarter-wave plates need adjustment, the best option is to seek someone who does that.


In contract, Colorfacts is what the person *doing* the calibration might use to take the measurements and gauge the progress. It is the nitty-gritty details of the calibration process and really needs a human to make sense of what is happening. Colorfacts does not directly modify anything...it's instrument panels full of data, designed for human consumption.


Both of these will support the same instrumentation, which will be another topic to discuss closer to the times when these are available (plus, my fingers are tiring on this thread!).


Thanks for keeping me honest! You guys sure don't miss much http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif .


[This message has been edited by milori (edited 07-16-2001).]
 

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One other question Mark. You had mentioned that callibration would be possible for either someone with a DILA projector OR someone with an HTPC. Does that mean callibrating the color on an HTPC would require, Dilard, ColorFacts, both, or something else? Don't you clearly need a light sensor to do color callibration, and isn't that in ColorFacts? Or I guess Dilard does something like Avia, putting up patterns, and you adjust things until two things match.


Any comments on what products would be used/needed to callibrate a (non-DILA) projector with a HTPC?


Mike



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Discussion Starter #8
Hi Mike,


In a nutshell:
  • D-ILA projectors have hundreds of settings to correct the image internally. For instance, color correction and grayscale tracking can be corrected within the gamma table.
  • That doesn't help folks with other projectors, though.
  • Another, similar look-up table is found on most modern video cards (circa 1998 and later). Almost all HTPC users will have a video card with a downloadable gamma LUT.
  • In a future release, Colorfacts will support color and grayscale correction at the SOURCE (HTPC or equivalent computer-based scaler like the Rock or Leeza).
  • For D-ILA folks, Dilard is preferable, since anything that you plug into the projector will benefit.
  • For DLP, LCD folks, only sources that are run through the computer-based system will benefit. If you're a dScaler user, AccessDTV/HiPix/Hauppage HDTV user, WinDVD/PowerDVD/ATI DVD player user, this is the way to go.
  • Just to set your expectations, Colorfacts 1.0 will not perform updates to the downloadable LUTs of computer-based scalers. It will require manual adjustment of the gains (RGB), biases, contrast, etc. and will not perform intra-spectrum adjustments in the first release.


Good question, though!
 

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Sorry for asking so many questions, but I just wanted to clarify some stuff.


Obviously ColorFacts is responsible for doing all the measurements of your current setup. But who is responsible for (a) deciding what changes need to be made (i.e. computing a new gamma curve based on the ColorFacts measurements), and (b) who actually "makes it so"?


I think clearly Dilard does (b) for a DILA, and I guess ColorFacts does (b) for an HTPC. Is (a) done by the same module that does (b)? Or in the case of a DILA, does ColorFacts "drive" Dilard?


And just to clarify, for ColorFacts 1.0, for my situation (DLP + HTPC), it will not do either (a) or (b), correct? Is modifying the LUT some kind of black magic, or is there some way I can tweak it myself? I'm guessing "not", but I figured I'd ask. So it seems like in 1.0, I'll be able to measure my output, but I'll be unable to change it through my LUT at all. (Unfortunately, my projector has *very* limited settings to tweak, which is why it seems the only way I can do any kind of interesting tweaking is through HTPC settings.)


Thanks for taking the time to answer!


Mike



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Mark,


I got the impression at one time you planned for the Gamma Wizard to work without the aid of colorimeter (sp?) or any other special hardware. Is this still true? With the Gamma Wizard allow you to optionally use a colorimeter?


To be honest, I'm kind of on the fence on whether to spend the money on Dilard or go with professional calibration. Unfortunately, I've totally blown my finances buying a G15, so I really don't have the luxury of doing both (if I blow any more money on my HT, divorce will be imminent). I REALLY like the idea of being able to do the calibration myself, especially if it yields professional (or even near) professional results! Please help me make the right decision (nudge, nudge)!
 

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Is there any time estimate on the Gamma Wizard? Last I read, we were looking for a release date sometime around now, with an option to buy a colorimeter at a reduced price... I'm eagerly anticipating this release because ever since I adjusted my black levels, I have a greenish tinge on dark greys and a purplish tinge on light greys when viewing B&W source material. The Gamma Wizard should help me fix this, as well as better detail in dark scenes and posterization, right?


Thanks in Advance!

-Sloth
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by milori:
...If you're a dScaler user, AccessDTV/HiPix/Hauppage HDTV user, WinDVD/PowerDVD/ATI DVD player user, this is the way to go. ...
Just FYI... The Hauppage WinTV-HD and, AFAIK, the AccessDTV and HiPix go directly to your display in HDTV mode bypassing your display card. WinTV-HD only gives you ability to adjust contrast/brightness/hue/saturation, so 1). you'd have to adjust these separately from your display driver, 2). you have no control over things like gamma, 3). I don't know of anyway of having ColorFacts control the WinTV-HD's output so it wouldn't be able to measure what the card is putting out.


I wish it would work though... Closest I can come to calibrating my WinTV-HD is run AVIA through the s-video in.


-Sloth

 

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Quote:
Originally posted by milori:
Modifying the LUT is only a tiny bit of magic. The hard part is coming up with the correct values.
And is that me? Is this something that will be done by ColorFacts 2.0?
Quote:
I don't think that there are any tools out there for directly manipulating the LUT tables, although I have built one for testing.
Is this something you consider proprietary, or would you release it, GPL or something, for people to damage their video cards with? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Quote:
The goal here is to use the LUT tables to do minor color correction so the grayscale tracks D65 perfectly. The PROJECTOR is measured, but the PC is modified. When the PC puts a picture through the PROJECTOR that tracks a linear grayscale, that LUT is kept.
Now you seem to be implying that this will be a somewhat automated process? By ColorFacts?


Mark - I'm really not trying to force feature creep on you. I'm just trying to understand. And if I have ColorFacts, and I can do all this great measurements, I really want some knobs to turn! That's why I'm trying to understand this LUT stuff. If there's some way that I can tweak the LUT to try to battle my green shift, that would be great.


Mike



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[This message has been edited by mflaster (edited 07-16-2001).]


[This message has been edited by mflaster (edited 07-16-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Quote:
One more simple question: Although Dilard wizard will be fully automated, will it give some information when it's done? Like the contrast ratio it was able to achieve?

Or will we need Colorfacts to be able to determine that?
Chris,


Dilard will definitely give you "before" and "after" eye candy to look at, but it won't be an entire comprehensive analysis. Instead, it will be focussed on the task at hand. Of course, the gamma wizard will show gray scale linearity as well as before and after graphs of the gamma curve itself.

Sloth,


Should we take this over to the HTPC forum http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif .


Quote:
I would like to kindly petition that you make the non-hardware assisted gamma correction wizard a priority.
Jeremy


I hear you loud and clear. I am still looking for "shortcuts" so I can get this thing out, but everytime I try to cut a feature, I hear about it. I understand your concern, and it is duly noted. (Note: I did stop just short of guaranteeing that the feature will make it...just to cover myself).

Quote:
Is this something you consider proprietary, or would you release it, GPL or something, for people to damage their video cards with?

Mike

I'll tell you what...e-mail me privately, and I can compile and send you the "raw" LUT toucher. With no instrumentation, it will be pretty hard to use, but you might make it do magic on that green shift of yours. I can't GPL the code, since I certainly planning on incorporating it into Colorfacts 1.1.


PS - This is not a "me too" thread. This raw LUT toucher is just that...a low-level raw tool for affecting every color coming out of a computer. A human touching the numbers in an arbitrary fashion messes up the colors pretty quick...I know from testing http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif . I will not be sending it out to anyone who e-mails. So, please don't e-mail.


Quote:
Now you seem to be implying that this will be a somewhat automated process? By ColorFacts?
Precisely. Only for computers or computer-based scalers, though.


Mike, you seem pretty big on this feature. Do you think that the LUT modification code should be in the CF 1.0 release from the get-go?



[This message has been edited by milori (edited 07-16-2001).]
 

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Quote:


Mike, you seem pretty big on this feature. Do you think that the LUT modification code should be in the CF 1.0 release from the get-go?
Oh, great, now everyone's going to send me hate-mail because I'm the one that caused the feature creep that made ColorFacts late! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Personally speaking, without any means to do LUT modifications, and given that my projector has such limited tuning capabilities (I have a Davis clone, BTW), ColorFacts without LUT modifications doesn't do me any good. While I guess I'd like to see pretty pictures and facts about my display, it doesn't help if I can't change it.


It seems that on the HTPC forum, there are lots of posts where people are very interested in complete gamma control, where I think they want to modify the whole curve, not just a single gamma number.


It seems to me that ColorFacts without a "LUT toucher" is a tweaker's delight for someone with a DILA (and DILARD). *With* a "LUT toucher", it's a tweaker's delight for someone with a DILA *or* an HTPC.


But feature creep *is* bad... How about making a separate, stand-alone program, heck, make it command-line based, where you would do:

% LUT_toucher.exe --dump current_table.txt

which would generate a a file with numbers in it. You would then modify that table, either by hand, or with a program, or a perl script, or whatever the tweaker feels comfortable with, and do:

% LUT_toucher.exe --set new_table.txt


But don't delay any of your products because of my suggestion - I don't want hate-mail!!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Mike



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Discussion Starter #16

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So Mark,


For all of us patiently awaiting Dilard Gamma Wizard all we need is to set up our HTPC overlays to the 100 IRE/7.5 IRE standard 714 mV/53.6 mV, have our trusty, CA-1/VA-1, (or the new one available from you), handy and we're ready to rock when you post the code?


I'm there baby! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


By the way, your contrast measurement seems awsome! I hope I can achieve that high a number on my new G15.


Now GET BACK TO WORK you code monkey! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


Phil
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by mflaster:

If there's some way that I can tweak the LUT to try to battle my green shift, that would be great.


Mike


[/b]
Ditto!


Robert


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Robert Clark

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http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...874&a=12744078
 

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Mike,

You better send me the fix if you're able to cure our green shift on the davis 650! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Robert


Quote:
Originally posted by mflaster:
Quote:


Mike, you seem pretty big on this feature. Do you think that the LUT modification code should be in the CF 1.0 release from the get-go?
Oh, great, now everyone's going to send me hate-mail because I'm the one that caused the feature creep that made ColorFacts late! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
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Robert Clark

See our home theater (with very poor quality pics!)
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...874&a=12744078


[This message has been edited by Robert Clark (edited 07-16-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Quote:
Sorry for asking so many questions
No problem at all...as long as I can keep up!

Quote:
Obviously ColorFacts is responsible for doing all the measurements of your current setup. But who is responsible for (a) deciding what changes need to be made (i.e. computing a new gamma curve based on the ColorFacts measurements), and (b) who actually "makes it so"?
That's a good question, and has been a little vague (sorry!). There will be more information about it closer to the release date.


In a nutshell:
  • Colorfacts will be able to analyze many devices, through the use of device profiles. We will be creating them as we can acquire the equipment. For example, I put some ugly settings into the projector last night during testing. One of the important steps is getting peak white to D65. Using the CIE chart, the Temperature Meter and the Temperature Histogram, it was a piece of cake to get peak white to D65 using the projectors R Gain, B Gain and G Gain (the service level and end-user controls). There was no Dilard. Nothing was automatic. I was manually making adjustments while watching the meters until I nailed D65 dead on, with maximum brightness.
  • Interesting side note: It seems that the Blue panel saturates before the Red and Green on the D-ILA (possibly on other LCDs as well). To maximize your brightness at peak white (at D65, of course), set the Blue first to where it saturates (when the brightness starts to drop off - use the Luminance Histogram for that) then set the Red and Green colors relative to Blue to get your D65. Bingo! Maximum brightness (and maximum contrast if you black level is set right).
  • Using the technique above (and without Dilard), I now have an honest contrast of 657:1 on my G11.
  • So, Mike, part (b) of your question is...YOU! You "make it so", but need to know how. Hopefully the final documentation and the Wizards will help a lot, but this should be considered to be somewhat of a "high-end tweaker" / professional tool. Meaning, you have to know just what to do with the information.
  • The exception to the "You" answer is that Dilard can directly modify projectors that support it...which is only D-ILA. If we can get other manufacturers to allow these modifications via RS232, there may be a way to add on to the supported projector list in the future.
  • By the way, answer (a) is probably you as well. Did I mention that you will need to know what to do with the information? That is why I was careful not to pick a name with "Cal" in it. There is no "cal". There is only data. Color. Facts. You will need to sit down with the remote (and possibly the Avia DVD), and adjust all of the "front-panel" controls, and as many service-menu controls as you feel comfortable with.

Quote:
Is modifying the LUT some kind of black magic
Modifying the LUT is only a tiny bit of magic. The hard part is coming up with the correct values. Actually downloading the tables into the video card is quite easy.


I don't think that there are any tools out there for directly manipulating the LUT tables, although I have built one for testing. Things get pretty ugly pretty quickly. The goal here is to use the LUT tables to do minor color correction so the grayscale tracks D65 perfectly. The PROJECTOR is measured, but the PC is modified. When the PC puts a picture through the PROJECTOR that tracks a linear grayscale, that LUT is kept.


Whew. Thanks, MIke.

Quote:
I got the impression at one time you planned for the Gamma Wizard to work without the aid of colorimeter (sp?) or any other special hardware. Is this still true?
Hi Papa,


Still true, but I really have to be careful with scope creep. I have to keep getting this stuff out the door. The Gamma Wizard will have an option to use 32 checkerboard dithered grayscale patterns and a defocussed projector for setting grayscale as well, but that is down the road a bit. First, I have to get something out for all the folks that have been waiting. Must....keep....feature....list....manageable..... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif .


BTW, AccessDTV is normally running in a Window at my place, and appears to use the DirectX overlay for video. That means that a gamma correction to the DirectX LUTs would actually be able to work on HDTV as well. I think that you may be right about full-screen HDTV, though. I'm not sure if that goes through DirectX or simply sends the video straight out the VGA connector, effectively bypassing Windows completely.


[This message has been edited by milori (edited 07-16-2001).]
 
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