AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been researching how to do a front projection screen that is directly lit. There are outdoor screens (seaworld, etc) as well as church's or other venue's that have enormous amounts of light hitting the screen, that do seem to work.


I've researched chromavue (RGB, like silverfire) supernova, etc.. One theme I see recurring is an 'optical black filter' in front of the reflective part of the screen to provide the black level when directly lit. (Or in rear projection, like the DNP blackstripe - a black filter that is projected 'through')


I'm trying to think of a DIY method to replicate this, and my thoughts center around a TWH, with petscreen adhesived (even with clear poly, or the behr fauxe glaze) to the THW. Then spray SILVER to help fill in the 'cells' in the petscreen. I haven't done the math, but by eye, it looks like the petscreen will give me my 40-60% coverage that it looks like other mfg's go for.


I can go into detail on my thinking on this -- but before I put too many brain cycles into this, I thought I'd toss it out for others to chew on.


End goal is high off axis light rejection (which is why I was looking for a 'deep profile' screen, like petscreen with a rectangular, taller than wide profile) that when combined with a high gain application, brings me back up to 0.9-1.0 gain. I don't need more than about 30-40degree off axis viewing.


thoughts?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,564 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbelljbell /forum/post/16935033


I've been researching how to do a front projection screen that is directly lit. There are outdoor screens (seaworld, etc) as well as church's or other venue's that have enormous amounts of light hitting the screen, that do seem to work.

Something else to take into consideration is the projectors used at seaworld, churches, etc aren't the same as what people are using in Home Theaters. What we call a 'light cannon' would be a wimp compared to these units!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,564 Posts
Okay that's a start...

What are the conditions you're dealing with? As in room layout, windows/lighting... screen size... things like that. Do you already have a projector or are you still looking?
 

·
DIY Granddad (w/help)
Joined
·
24,837 Posts
I've seen what your facing, and something along the order of S-I-L-V-E-R or the original CG or CGIII would optimize you available Lumens.


The real issue is just how spectacular you want it to look. I've seen 14' Screens under multi 1000 watt lamps perform great with a SF surface painted on Drywall, hit with a Mitsubishi 5500 (5500 lumens WXGA) Twin 2750 lumen lamps. And two of those would be able to handle a 30'er if the surface employs a coating that has both a Dark Gray hue AND adequate Reflectivity.


But something like a retro-reflective screen approach still demand a proper PJ placement. and seldom is that possible via Front projection, unless your design can incorporate a Island Pedestal application. That former isn't too plausible though as the Folks on the Stage would be looking downward into a Blast Furnace, and if you mounted it mid way on the back wall inverted, you'd lose lumens through the drastically increased throw distance.


Nope, you still want to optimize throw distance / lumens delivered to the reflectivity of the screen, and to me, a increased ratio of Silver Metallic into the S-I-L-V-E-R solution (up to 10% Silver Metallic / 90% Glaze ) would deliver...with your PJ's luminosity carrying the weight of combating the effect of the light coming in sideways. The Silver Metallic's contrast and color enhancing properties will work fine if the light it receives is intense enough to combat the ambient light it will also receive.


Now really, does the Sun shine directly through those Tall Windows and onto the Screen area....? or is it just intensely bright due to the extent of the Glass when the Sun is bright outside.


I ask, because few Church Building designers would ever face such an expanse of glass directly South, or even directly East. Usually, the Windows are in the West, and the East walls have a solid facade. Or the "Entry" windows are North and Pulpit windows South, so that by Noon, the Sun is directly over the Roof, shining "down".....not inward.


If you do not have an absolute worst case scenario, then don't fret so much....it's very workable.


If it is a worst case scenario, then perhaps the should consider retractable Mesh Fabric Window Roller shades. Cut to the shape of the openings. Their installation would be about equal to a 5-6K Lumen PJ's cost, but would eliminate a LOT of design considerations if they only were "Reducing' light, not eliminating it altogether.


So whassup...really? I'm sure there is a easy, effective...and affordable solution. Leastwise something where a blending of efforts will result in optimal results


I do suppose that that lovely Stained Glass facade was meant to be seen...not covered up though. What an expanse of multi-hued color!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
stained glass to the south east, stained glass to the south west... Altar is north... It's an octagon, and worst case scenario at 10:30 worship.


that's the south west wall at mid-day, and it was cloudy.


BTW MM: I will email, but not typically post customers pics without their permission.
 

·
DIY Granddad (w/help)
Joined
·
24,837 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbelljbell /forum/post/16938196


stained glass to the south east, stained glass to the south west... Altar is north... It's an octagon, and worst case scenario at 10:30 worship.


that's the south west wall at mid-day, and it was cloudy.


BTW MM: I will email, but not typically post customers pics without their permission.


Sorry.....my Bad. Force of habit. Seemed harmless, but wadda I know frum nuthin'?
It's gone. You already know about it so it's redundant anyway.




It still seems to me that excepting the dead of winter with the Sun as low in the sky as possible, you would still not have "direct sunlight" against the Pulpit wall. No? Yes? Directed Light, or simply flooded with High Ambient light, both present a big difference in wants and needs.


Am I preachin' to the Choir here though....?
Seems I might be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
There are times of the year... that this place 'glows' it's so bright... Yes, the light coming in from the south east facing glass, will shine directly on the north wall, and then back into the eyes of the audience. I can get the screen above most of the directed light... but it's bright.


A black optical filter seems my best bet.


However it was interesting reading up on the sony chromavue, and noticing the VERY similar construction to SF. That is the route I first thought I'd probably go, but with nice pure color stained glass... I'm thinking that would defeat SF's ambient light rejection.


you are correct on the high power, audience is wider than the ideal 15degree cone... so that's out.


SO... if it works in the back yard, it should work here....


thoughts?
 

·
DIY Granddad (w/help)
Joined
·
24,837 Posts
Silver Fire with 4 oz Colorant and 10% more Reflective elements per Reflective/Viscosity Base volume. Extra care in mixing to achieve as neutral a Gray as possible. Twin, Stacked Optoma TWR1693 WXGA (16:10 & 4:3) Projector w/3600 ANSI Lumens (7200 total) placed at the closest possible throw distance to meet the screen size requirements. Those babies cost less than $1400.00 ea. A tremendous bargain


Other than that, it's PJs like the Panny. 2 of them stacked would be 11,000 lumens and cost approx. $10,000.00 Still a decent bargain really, especially if it solves a snarky light issue.


As for the "old news" Chromaview, SF SMOKED it so bad at any lumen level it was silly. A non-competitor of epically dismal performance. Really...it was so bad, it isn't worth going on about....
The latest version is hardly any better...just simply more useful because it's flexible....and cheap.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
so you're of the opinion of SF... that's the route I had figured would be the best bet, but with pure colors coming from the stained glass.... I think it's iffy.


and as for dlp projectors... I've never successfully used them in a bright setting -- they just don't saturate like lcd's. I'm usually a sanyo or nec person, with long throw lenses (6:1 in this case)


However, the projector will be the LAST thing decided on, for this. I will need to buy or make demo screens and test before I decide on anything. Although I'm pretty sure an xf-47 would work.


so you're suggesting, 33oz 2601, 16.5oz 2603, and 6.6oz champagne? If I understand the theory correctly, wouldn't it be easier to drop the upw to 8oz instead?



(base components)

30 oz. Delta Ceramcoat Pearl #02601

15 oz. Delta Ceramcoat Silver Metallic #02603

10 oz. Behr Interior UPW Flat #1850 (or Exterior #4050)

6 oz. Folk Art - Champagne Metallic


(viscosity components)

24 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin Finish @Michaels & Home Depot

16 oz. Distilled or Filtered water


(color components)

50 ml water to rinse the color pigments from the measuring utensils.

20 ml - Liquitex Basics - Naphthol Crimson - (PR170)

8 ml - Liquitex Basics - Phthalocyanine Green - (PG7)

5 ml - Liquitex Basics - Phthalocyanine Blue

5 ml - Liquitex Basics - Cadmium Yellow Deep Hue (PY 83)
 

·
DIY Granddad (w/help)
Joined
·
24,837 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbelljbell /forum/post/16938871


so you're of the opinion of SF... that's the route I had figured would be the best bet, but with pure colors coming from the stained glass.... I think it's iffy.

If the Foot Candles of "colored" light that hits the screen is in excess of that which the PJ is putting out, then there will be washout. Something part of the way to that point? Discoloration or shifting.


All that is helped by or ex calibrated by the darkness of the Screen or vice versa.

Quote:
and as for dlp projectors... I've never successfully used them in a bright setting -- they just don't saturate like lcd's. I'm usually a sanyo or nec person, with long throw lenses (6:1 in this case)

I know why...and appreciate the reasons. That's why LCDs started out as primarily the Presentation Platform of choice. And they were/are almost always cheaper per Lumen value as well. Most all my original DIY paint applications were intended to ramp up 'el cheapo' LCD performance. They simply served to make DLP/D-ILA do even better once those items became more commonly accepted and affordable.

Quote:
However, the projector will be the LAST thing decided on, for this. I will need to buy or make demo screens and test before I decide on anything. Although I'm pretty sure an xf-47 would work.

At 15k Lumens....it better. But the Lord knows you'll need all the Screen assistance you can muster up, and that means a dark gray but reflective screen.


This one below was 140' diagonal and existed in extremely bright lighting...some directed...most ambient. PJ was a lowly Veiwsonic 2500 lumen XGA w/500:1 CR.









Yes......it was a very dark Screen, and one of the first of it's kind too.




The Manager of the Place took it down and took it home.


Quote:
so you're suggesting, 33oz 2601, 16.5oz 2603, and 6.6oz champagne? If I understand the theory correctly, wouldn't it be easier to drop the upw to 8oz instead?

Not if you want enough paint to do something with. Besides, you'll be adding more Colorant...so you do not want to compound the darkening effect by reducing anymore of the "White" element.


You can judge for yourself....but to me, it's still the benchmark by which all other DIY Ambient Light screens must be measured against. basically...you just wouldn't want to watch any other DIY Screen app in existence that matched that shade of Gray and use that same PJ. No others exist that could produce such a splendidly large and vibrant image in such ambient light under 2500 lumens of projected image.


OBTW...that bulb already had 1100 hours on it. Amazing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,564 Posts
my 2 cents are this...


given the amount of ambient light we are talking about... S-I-L-V-E-R would not be a good solution for this installation.


RS-MaxxMudd is a fairly easy mix to make and would fair better in this situation than S-I-L-V-E-R... but even that's asking a lot unless we alter it to a darker 2:1 silver to pearl solution.


Silver Fire would certainly work. If presentations...ie hymns verses & graphics are the main use then i'd go with a medium leaning toward darker shade. otherwise, if motion video is the main goal... ie sermons, videos of church ministries, youth activities... then i'd lean medium toward lighter shade.


now with respect to the shards of stained glass or even shards of sunlight hit the screen... the darker the shade... the more 'local' the effect is...and the less washout the ray of color or sunlight will have on the rest of the screen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
pb_maxx.


I was only considering silver as a translucent reflective application within the cells of a black 'mesh' yes, I'm sure silver would wash as a straight application.


thanks for that. 80% static presentation (hymns, scripture, very high contrast, white text over blue background kind, etc...) 20% moving. Of the moving about 15% video clips, 5% live camera. Live camera will sometimes have text superimposed.


so, your typical church service kind of stuff.


so, your best recommendation? (It doesn't have to be a single suggestion, I plan on making 4'x4' test panels, and hitting it with about 100ft.lm. for my tests)
 

·
DIY Granddad (w/help)
Joined
·
24,837 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbelljbell /forum/post/16941409


can't view your images mm??

I posted uncropped images that had some old info on them that was deemed inappropriate. Hang on...the cropped images will be up in another 10 minutes.



....OK, they are Baaaaack.


As to the best suggested Formula, upping the Silver Metallic content to 2:1 Silver to Pearl will start down the road toward a darker suface, but just a bit. The real difference will be your going with 3-4 Oz Colorant per the above specified Mix volume.


I personally think the 3 oz Colorant will be quite sufficient for the Job under 15k illumination, but 4 Oz most assuredly will be. We're talkin' DEEP Blacks...comparatively speaking, yet also excellent whites, especially if the Gamma and Contrast settings are effectively adjusted to compensate for the Dark Gray surface.


make up test panels with both using the increased Silver Metallic, but one a 3 oz Colorant and the other at 4 Oz.


Be advised (...this is obvious....) that you'll need to test these out at different locations. Personally, I'd cut down two TWH sheets to 4' x 85", and use a more substantial area since just as obviously your content will be expanded considerably if you employ any close degree of Zoom such as the application will demand from a far off throw distance.


Afterward, you'll have two 16:9 Screens to have/use/give to the Church as a Tax Deductible donation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,564 Posts
i understand the mesh theory to 'cut' into the light hitting the screen from the side... but unless the mesh is 'raised' substantially you'd only effect about 10-15% of each 'pixel' (so to speak) created by the mesh... not to mention introducing a visible screen door from polar opposites of black mesh (purely absortion) and silver(mostly reflection). therefore, i would not be inclined to use this solution.


being a minister's kid myself... i figured you say the majority of this for presentation.


given that this is true in this ministry also... and with light cannons to boot... a 3.0-3.5oz Silver Fire is the way to go.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
'petscreen' is deep, and very black. lcd's screendoor anyway, and in a church, no one is within 30' of the screen.


MM suggested 4oz sf with 10% more reflective added.


I will not even consider fewer than 50ft.lm, most likely 100ft.lm.


so, the possibilities I've heard so far is:


3.5sf with everything else 'normal'

4.0sf with 10% more reflective added.

rsmuddmaxx with 2:1 silver to pearl
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,564 Posts
i'm thinkin' the first two suggestions are about the same result... or at least the visual greyness of the screen.


...i somehow have overlooked the screen dimensions and also whether it is a fixed screen or electric roll-up...


if it's a fixed screen... i have an idea of how we might turn this into a mirrored light fusion type of solution.


it'll make MM cringe... but hey... what else is new?



oh, and i see that you are in KC.... that wouldn't happen to be my father's (retired) church? I hestitate to say... Evangelical Lutheran.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top