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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Interesting front article. I thought it was most relevant in this forum.


I am against piracy and use a music subscription service through Rhapsody.


I rolled my eyes when I saw that none of the fines were going to the artists, but were funding the programs to supposedly get money for ... more funding I guess.


Good to see in a tailspin economy that the RIAA can find ways to make ends meet.
 

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It's the stupidity of the US-legal system thats at fault here. And by that i dont mean the fact he is guilty or not, but the completely moronic system of granting damages.


Here in the Netherlands you need to define the damages you ask. You have to be able to prove you actually sufferd the damages you ask. damages granted are always meant to compensate for the actual damage suffered (nullify the damages you suffered). AND, this is important, you need to be able to prove the damages you claim are the real damages suffered , truthfull and correct (RIAA claims, but i think they can prove their claims at all). Else you get awarded nothing, or the judge sets the damages (mostly always lower than actual damages).


In other words: Here in the old lands we are still able to relate the damages to the actual fact proven (in stead of silly suing the hell out of everybody and seeing what you can get).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 /forum/post/16959994


Glad we voted somebody in office who is going to get rid of the lobbyists... OH SNAP !!

as if we had a choice...




why do we pirate? i'll give you an example, people download movies off torrent sites, why?


you can get an unlimited netflix account with unlimited streaming for $8.99 a month. but people have to wait for the movie to arrive and the online quality sucks. video stores are always out of stock... so the alternative is to pay $15-$20 for a movie.


now what if netflix offered there entire selection online in 720p hd. or even high bitrate 480p?


most people wouldn't pirate becuase they wouldn't need to.


Same thing with TV, If i could buy episodes of Entourage, i clearly would but i cant get good quality nor do i have cable so i cant watch it... except for downloading...


I don't want to wait for the DVD to come out after the show has been over for months.


I dont want to pay $100 a month for HD cable plus the HBO fee, i only want to buy the 1 show i watch.


If i cant get them easily, i download. Thats the way it is.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_311 /forum/post/16960299


as if we had a choice...




why do we pirate? i'll give you an example, people download movies off torrent sites, why?


you can get an unlimited netflix account with unlimited streaming for $8.99 a month. but people have to wait for the movie to arrive and the online quality sucks. video stores are always out of stock... so the alternative is to pay $15-$20 for a movie.


now what if netflix offered there entire selection online in 720p hd. or even high bitrate 480p?


most people wouldn't pirate becuase they wouldn't need to.


Same thing with TV, If i could buy episodes of Entourage, i clearly would but i cant get good quality nor do i have cable so i cant watch it... except for downloading...


I don't want to wait for the DVD to come out after the show has been over for months.


I dont want to pay $100 a month for HD cable plus the HBO fee, i only want to buy the 1 show i watch.


If i cant get them easily, i download. Thats the way it is.

I am not really sure what your argument is here.


All I hear from your comment is:

I know my chances of getting caught at near zero and I am not willing to pay for content that I want.


Do you think HBO could make shows like Entourage and Hung if people only had to pay a small fee for each episode? Thats highly debatable.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mackworth /forum/post/16960362



All I hear from your comment is:

I know my chances of getting caught at near zero and I am not willing to pay for content that I want.

really? you must work for the RIAA then.


No i dont have cable and it not worth my money to pay $120 for cable and HBO just to watch entourage.


i do have a netflix account that i use to watch all other sorts of tv series and movies. plus i buy movies that i want to watch over again. i just download what i cant get easily, which it basically just that one show, i record everything else off OTA or i rent the series dvd.


now if it was made easier for me to get. i don't even think itunes offers it, only after the season over...
 

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$675K fine??


most graduate students don't have $675.00


grad student declares bankruptcy...fine is moot.


Sounds like a really successful plan...spends zillions on lawyer fees (lawyer's ain't cheap) suing some shlub without any hope of collecting a single dime of the fine...


Actually, it's brilliant...if your the lawyer. Your bleeding your client (RIAA) of hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees.


I'm all for the RIAA being screwed by it's own lawyers...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_311 /forum/post/16960432


really? you must work for the RIAA then.

Yes, he must work for the RIAA.


Unfounded accusations are fun. With all of the accusations thrown around on AVS, the average poster must work for five different companies/organizations.
 

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I can actually see a slighty differnet angle to this. I subscribe to Dish Network with all the HD and premiums (no porn) for 5 receivers. I pay for everything just in case someone in the family wants to watch something. I make a decent living, so I don't worry about the cost too much. I often rent DVDs and then buy the ones I'd like to watch again only to rip them to my home server. I suppose I could rip the rented ones, but it goes against my grain to do something like that. (I write software for a living so pirates really tick me off.)


Dish Network, and the rest, refuse to give me an option to hook up directly to my PC with an HD connection, so I'm stuck with using the s-video connection and a Dish receiver. I've got to say, I'd be tempted to buy a device that I could just hook my dish cable directly to my HTPC, legal or not. I'm paying Dish Network, so it's not like I'd be stealing anything.


So I buy an album on vinyl, tape, CD, HD CD, etc., but I'm not supposed to copy it to my computer. Same with a movie. BETA, VHS, DVD, Blu-Ray, etc. When will I be able to just take my copy a movie or album to a store and just upgrade to the latest technology for the cost of the media? Yeah, right!


I have a handful of movies that I've purchased 2 or 3 times and many more albums that I've purchased at least 3 times. There's got to be a better way...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_311 /forum/post/16960299


as if we had a choice...




why do we pirate? i'll give you an example, people download movies off torrent sites, why?


you can get an unlimited netflix account with unlimited streaming for $8.99 a month. but people have to wait for the movie to arrive and the online quality sucks. video stores are always out of stock... so the alternative is to pay $15-$20 for a movie.


now what if netflix offered there entire selection online in 720p hd. or even high bitrate 480p?


most people wouldn't pirate becuase they wouldn't need to.


Same thing with TV, If i could buy episodes of Entourage, i clearly would but i cant get good quality nor do i have cable so i cant watch it... except for downloading...


I don't want to wait for the DVD to come out after the show has been over for months.


I dont want to pay $100 a month for HD cable plus the HBO fee, i only want to buy the 1 show i watch.


If i cant get them easily, i download. Thats the way it is.

These people would pirate anyway... unless it was free. As it is now, my kids and I have a subscription to rhapsody for 3 players (3 limited per account). We pay $12.99.


Now just tell me who can't afford $12.99.... seriously. Even a college kid spends 10X that on beer and pizza every month minimum.


The real problem is that people have a sense of entitlement and have forgotten what it is to earn something. It is a give me, give me or its not fair mentality.


Now look. I am an extremely liberal democrat, but there is a line that needs to be drawn.


I just see the problem with the RIAA is they go to the other extreme. There needs to be a happy media. $675000 in fines is absurd. We all understand it is to send a message I guess, but seriously...


----


I agree with the above post. The people that really get punished in the end are the users who are not distributing media. The RIAA could find a way to sue pretty much anyone with a media server. It doesn't mean we share or pirate content. Sucks to do the right thing sometimes... but atleast we sleep better at night I guess.



I think the subscription idea is the closest we have, but the quality is just not the same as bluray. But it isn't that bad either. I guess rentals fill the gap.


We can cry all we want about rentals being too much, but you could always get the $50 9 movie at once subscription I guess. It may seem like alot, but when you compare it to a $1000-3000 mortgage, $500-1000 Child support, $300-600 car payment..... it pales in comparison. If you make 60000 per year throughout your life, it comes to 1% of your income at $50 per month. Think how much of your money the government wastes.....



---------------



On a side note, my 14 year old daughter wanted to get her friend a $25 MP3 player. She asked if it was legal to put the subscription music on there. I forward her a similar article a few months ago. I just forwarded this article to her as well. Kids need to understand growing up that it is NOT ok to share everything.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_311 /forum/post/16960432


really? you must work for the RIAA then.


No i dont have cable and it not worth my money to pay $120 for cable and HBO just to watch entourage.


i do have a netflix account that i use to watch all other sorts of tv series and movies. plus i buy movies that i want to watch over again. i just download what i cant get easily, which it basically just that one show, i record everything else off OTA or i rent the series dvd.


now if it was made easier for me to get. i don't even think itunes offers it, only after the season over...

Right, but what I don't get about about your argument is that you say its not worth your money to pay $120 dollars just to watch entourage so that means its ok for you download it?


If you didn't think it was worth 120 dollars, then you could just not watch it. Problem solved. Or you could just wait for it to come to itunes but that means you would have to wait for the season to be over, which is just too inconvenient for you. So instead you download it because you know there is a almost zero percent chance of anything bad happening to you and you don't want to pay for it.


I am just trying to keep you honest here. I am not saying I have never downloaded something in my life but lets not sugar coat it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackworth /forum/post/16960974


Right, but what I don't get about about your argument is that you say its not worth your money to pay $120 dollars just to watch entourage so that means its ok for you download it?


If you didn't think it was worth 120 dollars, then you could just not watch it. Problem solved. Or you could just wait for it to come to itunes but that means you would have to wait for the season to be over, which is just too inconvenient for you. So instead you download it because you know there is a almost zero percent chance of anything bad happening to you and you don't want to pay for it.


I am just trying to keep you honest here. I am not saying I have never downloaded something in my life but lets not sugar coat it.

+1


I am a phillies season ticket holder and I can justify paying my $27 per game per seat. I can't get eagles season tickets (long waiting list) and it would cost about $300 for a game on Stubhub.


I love my Eagles, but it isn't worth it to me to pay $300 to go to a game. It doesn't justify me sneaking under a fence to get in. There is wrong and there is right. You just have to ask yourself this: Would your grandmom be proud of you downloading content you didn't pay for?



There is no moral reasoning behind downloading things illegally. I love when people like themselves to being some kind of patriot for humanity. What folks don't get is that people put their whole lives into making a film. Imagine if you worked on a story and script. You worked your @$$ off getting someone to look at it. Someone became interested. People became inspired and worked on producing this film. In order to pull it off, each of them had to spend years of training and giving up the better things in life. And what do they have to show for it? A really great movie that people really want to see. Shouldn't they be rewarded for this. If you were the one who wrote it, wouldn't you? Now lets say you are the movie company. So you worked (and it is work) finding the capital to put together the movie, setting schedules and getting everything running. You talked the distributors into carrying your film. You have your companie's viability on the line and all those thousands of people that you employed and paid. You are going to use that money make an even better film next time.


After all the preparation and sweat and blood put into the movie, You are waiting for people to come in and watch it. But no one comes. Why? Because they all decided that they would spend the $20 on a Pizza and beer instead. Why should they come in? They just downloaded it off the internet and are watching in their home for free.


So what does the movie company do? They want to make another movie, but no one will fund them this time because they still owe for the last production. And do you know who pays in the end? The person who downloaded the movie because the next movie would have been even better. but it won't... because it will never be made.


George Lucas often says that there may never be another great saga light Star Wars, LOTRs in the future. Why? Because as pirating increases and cost increase, you are going to reach a point where the funds just aren't there.


Relating music to movies is well and good, but there are definite differences. The biggest is the resources needed to produce a series of songs than a high budget movie.


It is easy to blame the man. The problem is.... that we are all "the man".
 

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AFAIK, the guilty verdict that awards the RIAA $675k isn't "downloading" as per the topic, it's the fact that he was using P2P and therefore uploading/sharing when downloading. There's a distinction there that people seem to miss, if you only downloaded songs, then I assume the RIAA can only go after what those single download of those songs are off itunes or at most the entire cost of the CD in a store. If you're using P2P, because you're uploading at the same time, they can claim that you provided those songs to everyone on the internet and make up magic voodoo BS numbers and claim lost revenue etc. I don't follow these cases much, but pretty sure RIAA loves to go after P2P users the most since they can make the filesharing argument. I personally dislike P2P for the reason that I don't like uploading unless I explicitly know what's being uploaded. Looks like government and military organizations are starting to clue in that most P2P users don't know what they're uploading like the president's motorcase routes and helicoptor plans being shared on P2P.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmarchini /forum/post/16961075


George Lucas often says that there may never be another great saga light Star Wars, LOTRs in the future. Why? Because as pirating increases and cost increase, you are going to reach a point where the funds just aren't there.

We are seeing this problem with PC games as well. Some developers and publishers have no interest in releasing PC versions of some high-profile games due to piracy. Meanwhile, many consumers have no interest in buying some of the PC games that are released due to rigid content protection schemes that may intrude upon legitimate use. It really is a lose-lose situation for the content developers and publishers that in the end affect legitimate buying consumers such as myself.
 

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$675k is crazy. At a cost average of $10 per title you are looking at 67500 titles either uploaded or downloaded. That would be their cost. I know this is not the case, but if I were to steal that many cds, I would do some jail time and pay a fine or two, but I can guarantee the cost is not going to be as high for the combined jail time and fines as what this kid got and he literally never laid a finger on what he stole.


I know this is meant to be a heads up for everyone that downloads, but has anyone seen a decrease of downloading after these cases happen? I believe I read an article years ago about this and the illegal downloads actually increase.


Download...no he shouldn't have done it

$675k judgement...crazy stupid. Makes no sense. Make it something collectable. $5000 or 10k.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mackworth /forum/post/16960974


Or you could just wait for it to come to itunes but that means you would have to wait for the season to be over, which is just too inconvenient for you. So instead you download it because you know there is a almost zero percent chance of anything bad happening to you and you don't want to pay for it.


I am just trying to keep you honest here. I am not saying I have never downloaded something in my life but lets not sugar coat it.

im not justifying what i do, im just saying why i do it. why cant it be available for download for me to buy right away? becuase the greedy sobs want everyone to pay for HBO and Cable?


the model sucks, and as long as it sucks, people like me are going to circumvent the system until it gets fixed.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmarchini /forum/post/16961075


+1


I am a phillies season ticket holder and I can justify paying my $27 per game per seat. I can't get eagles season tickets (long waiting list) and it would cost about $300 for a game on Stubhub.


I love my Eagles, but it isn't worth it to me to pay $300 to go to a game. It doesn't justify me sneaking under a fence to get in. There is wrong and there is right. You just have to ask yourself this: Would your grandmom be proud of you downloading content you didn't pay for?



There is no moral reasoning behind downloading things illegally. I love when people like themselves to being some kind of patriot for humanity. What folks don't get is that people put their whole lives into making a film. Imagine if you worked on a story and script. You worked your @$$ off getting someone to look at it. Someone became interested. People became inspired and worked on producing this film. In order to pull it off, each of them had to spend years of training and giving up the better things in life. And what do they have to show for it? A really great movie that people really want to see. Shouldn't they be rewarded for this. If you were the one who wrote it, wouldn't you? Now lets say you are the movie company. So you worked (and it is work) finding the capital to put together the movie, setting schedules and getting everything running. You talked the distributors into carrying your film. You have your companie's viability on the line and all those thousands of people that you employed and paid. You are going to use that money make an even better film next time.


After all the preparation and sweat and blood put into the movie, You are waiting for people to come in and watch it. But no one comes. Why? Because they all decided that they would spend the $20 on a Pizza and beer instead. Why should they come in? They just downloaded it off the internet and are watching in their home for free.


So what does the movie company do? They want to make another movie, but no one will fund them this time because they still owe for the last production. And do you know who pays in the end? The person who downloaded the movie because the next movie would have been even better. but it won't... because it will never be made.


George Lucas often says that there may never be another great saga light Star Wars, LOTRs in the future. Why? Because as pirating increases and cost increase, you are going to reach a point where the funds just aren't there.


Relating music to movies is well and good, but there are definite differences. The biggest is the resources needed to produce a series of songs than a high budget movie.


1) This is assuming the person downloading would have spent money on the product in the first place. Personally I mostly download things I would never pay money for. If the downloading option up and disappeared on me one day I simply would forgo the product.


2) In light of the previous point, movie and music companies are quick to blame pirating on falling income. It couldn't possibly be the the quality of media has gone down and people are simply less interested. Or it couldn't possibly be that the market is so saturated that people simply cannot afford 10 movie tickets or 20 dvds/blu-rays a month to make every release these days a success.


3) Digital media is using the same pricing model as most other products, but the problem is it doesn't come with the same quality guarantee other products to. You cannot return a movie, game or MP3 you are dissatisfied with. It's also difficult to evaluate the product without first consuming it. This is a big reason pirating digital media is so appealing. And the other problem is the companies have been spending most of their money and resources on ways to enforce this flawed pricing model rather than the resources into a developing better models such as the finally emerging subscription models.




These aren't meant to be justifications, but they are reasons for pirating. The main problem is the media companies have seem to forgotten this is a consumer driven economy but insist on continued abuse of these consumers (like demanding a person pay $675k in damages which couldn't have really cost them more than $1000) rather than trying to adapt to the changing demands. A lot of people pirate just to stick it to these companies now. Either way I think at its core pirating is a message that current business models are not working, more so that it is about people wanting stuff for free. Just look at the success of Netflix, Hulu and the IMAX releases, especially the 3D ones. They are all offering what the consumer wants and the consumer responses with their wallets.
 

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Not so fast. I suggest that pirating happens because it can and, as with all things, the perceived benefit outweighs the actual risk.


Back in the day, who owned the equipment necessary to copy a vinyl album? Now, just about every house has what it needs to copy a CD.


Invent the next distribution device with cost prohibitive copy protection and your a billionaire.
 
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