AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
21 - 40 of 1,126 Posts
hmm why the non standard design this makes me skeptical of the not for hollywood stuff, i smell a rat, did we ever confirm if the dump from hard drive will be allowed for copy once flagged content recorded to the hard drive? sorry to bring up this old rumor up but would like it put to rest one way of another. it should be able to be answered at this point.


seems to me they should just use 5c and leave it at that. something seems fishy , there must be a reason they are going to t eh trouble of selectivity.


hopefully jvc will come through, is there unit going to have working firewire from day one?. thank goodness that they have incentive to do so, a dish box would make a great source for their dvhs machines -- this is why i have always had the idea that they would be the most likely to come through with firewire. hopefully that feeling turns out to be true, as everything else is starting to smell pretty bad. mit blames dish dish blames mits no date on teh 921 activation etc.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Stevens
By the way, a useless statistic: There are currently 2,400 active DISH 5000 users.
I wonder how many of these are HD subscribers/modulator users? These are the only ones that would be effective by the move of all HD to 105, right?
 
"6. The Firewire is not turned on because of serious software issues. They are only supporting the JVC30K and cannot get that to work "reliably" with it right now. They are working 24/7 to fix this and "it has nothing to do with Hollywood." I am concerned about this, because I could not get any ETA on when the Firewire could be turned on. It could be delayed for a very long time. But I was told flat out this is not a Hollywood issue. Hollywood seems to think tape isn't a factor anyway. (This info contradicts what I have been told by a lower level E* guy)"


This mirrors what I was told also. In addition, JVC30K was said to be working, but maybe only in isolated tests and not reliably in beta. The Mits was also being tested but they were(at that time) not able to get the control function to work and were waiting on Mits for support.


"The Firewire on the PVR921 is not standard (unlike the 211 firewire), which is why it is renamed DISHwire. This is E*'s brilliant move and the reason we are having problems. My source couldn't get into the reasons why this is being done, but sounded frustrated at it all. It sounds like they want to pick and choose what devices will work with the 921 to avoid things like the MyHD and Hipix cards from working."


The story I got had a different twist-

The reason for the name "DishWire" ? was that they wanted to have a trademarked name for the hard drive dump of content. It was a special moniker due to their unique application of this IEEE1394 technology but the actual electronics is a standard IEEE1394 protocol. The ability to prevent certain devices from functioning with the 921 was said to be a simple matter of listing them in the 1394 revocation list. At the time I discussed this E* had no plans to list any devices but added that is a matter of policy and if what Matt says is true maybe they now will add various identifiers for 1394 devices to the list. The reliability issues connected with any 1394 to JVC30K VCR is a long listed track record of problems. The trouble with digital 1394 is that it is very difficult to know if your source is the problem (921) or the JVC failed. I have NO 1394 devices here in the HDTV operation that work 100% All have reliability issues as compared to old fashion analog VCR's we are accustomed to.



The 211 was demoed with a Mitsubishi 1394 connection. The only issue I saw that would prevent a satisfactory recording is that what you see on the screen would be what you would get in your recording but when menus and guide info is present may shut down the recording. Plus there are no control functions to operate the 1394 VCR from the 211. I have not heard but my guess is they have indeed discovered issues that make the Mitsubishi system (Monitor and VCR 1394 combo) not work right with the 211. However the solo TV monitor worked fine when I saw it. I'd bet Mits doesn't want the 211 to be released unless it does work properly with the VCR as that is MIts' system.
 
Don wrote

"The crash then that was triggered as soon as you switched channels from an 8psk to a 4psk and back... quickly. Similar to what you said as doing too much too fast. The recovery, unfortunately, took a bit of time, like 5 minutes. This will be a huge area of complaint and I really do hope they get this under control before release but it sounds doubtful. "


Won't this be taken care of by the superdish, i.e. there won't be 4psk?
 
alv- only the new HDTV channels are 8PSK, all others are 4PSK. I think when they dump all older HDTV channels from 61.5 that are 4PSK now to a total Superdish requirement for HDTV, then we still will have all the SDTV channels on 4PSK. The only way I could see it being taken care of if you avoided the channels that remain 4PSK. When I saw the demo crash, it was not when switching back and forth between 4PSK channels but when switching between the DiscoveryHD and other HDTV or SDTV channels. At that time Discovery HD was the only 8PSK channel on the same 61.5 bird.


I'd bet, however that E* will fix that bug long before they dump all 4PSK transmissions.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Don Landis
Plus there are no control functions to operate the 1394 VCR from the 211.

I would not expect there to be. All control would be done from the master 1394 device such as NetCommand or a similar control system. This would include all basic controls and programming schedule for recording.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Quote:
did we ever confirm if the dump from hard drive will be allowed for copy once flagged content recorded to the hard drive?
On the beta test units with Firewire enabled, yes, that is how it works and is how it will work with 5C content, of which nothing will be for quite some time apparently. Even HD-PPV will not be 5C off the bat.


To quote The Princess Bride: "I hate waiting."


;)
 
I have been waiting a year to get HDTV with Dish into my projector but I kept waiting for the 921 or 811 to come out. My projector (Matinee 1HD) has VGA, Component and s-video inputs.


Is the talk about the possibility of Hollywood requiring the down-converting component video a valid concern? Why cause downgrading of the component video connection and not DVI? How am I going to record from the component anyway? Is that a reason to jump on the 6000 and use the VGA (RGB) port? This talk is probably the biggest reason I am considering getting the Dish 6000 instead of waiting for the 921.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Stevens


9. E*'s cost for the PVR921, which has an MSRP of $999, is just over $1400! They are taking a loss on every single one they sell. Hence the monthly fee. Dealer cost is going to be $950.
Matt, do you know the breakout of the $1400 cost? I can't help but wonder if there is some software amortization buried in there with all of the SW bugginess.


Thanks,


PS That HD Tivo for D* is sounding a lot better. What's better to wait for in "Spring 2004", non-buggy 921 or D*'s HD Tivo?
 
There is what looks to be a D-VHS record button on the 921 remote. Hopefully, we'll be able to use it sooner rather than later. :)
 
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""

did we ever confirm if the dump from hard drive, will be allowed for copy once flagged content recorded to the hard drive?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On the beta test units with Firewire enabled, yes, that is how it works and is how it will work with 5C content, of which nothing will be for quite some time apparently. Even HD-PPV will not be 5C off the bat.


To quote The Princess Bride: "I hate waiting."



"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""


First thanks Matt for taking the time to answer, i hope you can be patient for one more inquiry, a specife clairifiction actually - i am slow in the head or over thinking what you wrote.. Not sure which but am sure it is my problem not your answer that is fualty


Guess those other very early inside sourced reports from the company designing it were wrong about copy once content not being dumpable despite 5c allowing it. Or we are assuming they are wrong? Your saying " and that is how it will work with 5c content", makes me wonder/question if it was actually tested with a 5c flagged stream. Or if the dump function in generally was the only thing tested in beta testing



So you are saying it was beta tested with a 5c copy once flagged "test stream" (snice 5c currently is not in use) and it dumped to dvhs; or it was testedwith a non 5c, and it is assuming that the dump will conform to 5c spec with regard to copy once flagged content dump. sorry to be so slow i could not tell specificly what you meant. -- Other then 5c will not be used for awhile. ( good news) tho someday i think it will.




If confirmed, that 5c copy once content dumps, now i will just patiently and happily wait -- i have this long and i like dish so why not. cable was looking very temping but i hate my cable co the took me to the bank for 10 months service i did use and had canceled. i get me back it will be the last of any possible resort


So what dvhs machine did it work with in beta, and if it did with some was it not reliable, and if it was i wonder why that dvhs machine is not support off the bat - i really wish it was

thanks again and sorry to everyone else
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Don Landis


I was not quite sure I understood the bit about address brokers and the superdish install. Could not follow how they were related including the CBS-HD connection. I have a waiver on file and continue to get CBS-HD for $1.50. I don't know for how long because of the new court rulings, though.
Don,

If the requirement is the Superdishes MUST be professionally installed and people are using address brokers (to use a fake address in another part of the country to get certain programming that isn't allowed in their real home area) they will not be able to get the Superdish upgrades because an order to do so will send a installer out to the fake address they are using not the real one. Most local dealers won't try to do a install knowing the address is not what it is supposed to be (knowing it is illegal) as they can lose their Dish dealership if they get caught doing this (I know I am a Dish dealer). Local dealer/installers need to fill out forms with all the customers information to be submitted to Dish for equipment and installation reinbursements so the dealer DOES know what is up when they are asked to go to a address that doesn't match the customer's account info.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Quote:
So you are saying it was beta tested with a 5c copy once flagged "test stream" (since 5c currently is not in use) and it dumped to dvhs; or it was tested with a non 5c, and it is assuming that the dump will conform to 5c spec with regard to copy once flagged content dump. sorry to be so slow i could not tell specifically what you meant. -- Other then 5c will not be used for awhile.
I did not specifically ask if it was tested with actual 5C content. I asked if dumping copy once material was allowed and was told, "yes, as of right now that is exactly how it will work because it is part of the 5C spec." I was also told that there was some pressure on E* to go beyond the 5C spec but they would not do it because they would be open to lawsuits from their customers.

Quote:
So what dvhs machine did it work with in beta, and if it did with some was it not reliable, and if it was i wonder why that dvhs machine is not support off the bat
The JVC30K works with the PVR921, but there are "Communication problems." Thinks like the PVR921 forgetting the 30K is there or not being able to send a record command from time to time.


As for the address broker situation, the only way to fix this is by "Moving" to your real address when it is time for the Superdish upgrade and then, say six months late, moving again and saying you will do a self install. The problem with that is, will E* say OK to anyone installing the Superdish they already own? They do not want anyone self installing anything anymore and in fact, want the new receivers "installed" by professionals.
 
FrankS-


As you are an installer- how do you respond to installs where the cable runs are extremely difficult. In my case I have run my 4 cables through a very tight crawl space and since I know the path, I can run it myself in about 2 hours. The first time I did it the project took a half day. Would you recommend I run some cables myself for the Superdish, or let the installer suffer through it? The alternative I do not want is for an installer to come in and route the cables in the easiest path HE chooses that is unsightly. I have this image that the "proferssional installer" will do the minimum he has to just to get on to his next job.

Second- Are you being instructed to remove the old Dish 500 and use that mount? What about the 61.5 dish? I want to keep my 61.5 dish for some foreign programming options. How does that mesh with the superdish?
 
thanks matt, dish is my best option, so i will assume everything will work eventually and get will the 921 on release. thanks again


good question don, i mite like to do the same with 61.5
 
"The JVC30K works with the PVR921, but there are "Communication problems." Thinks like the PVR921 forgetting the 30K is there or not being able to send a record command from time to time. "


This is the same problem we have with 169Time connections. Don't have a JVC 30K but I know the Mits gets forgotten after a random period of time. Last week I stayed connected for the whole week. Then last night I went to record and it couldn't find the Mits. I reset everything and recorded. Played back fine. Early this morning I tried to record again and it forgot the Mits was connected. Didn't record! Next time it may stay connected for 3-5 days, who knows? What you report with the 921 is not uncommon, IMO.


Tony- I find it highly unlikely that the beta testers will have a laboratory of test generators that would be required for the kind of testing you describbed with 5C. They may have done some testing in the dev. lab but more likely, they probably just designed the code to implement the 5C spec and are done with it. What Matt was told as he just restated it was what I was told by Eldon Technologies earlier in the year and what he describbed about the JVC was the same I was told about the JVC except the part of the communications loss. I don't think it is worth worrying over (5C copy once issues) The 921 crashing is what concerns me. The rest of this stuff is nothing!


Matt- Did you happen to ask about future hard drive additions?
 
(It was confirmed that the 6000 receiver cannot downconvert HD and therefore will always output full 1080i or 720p via component and RGB. Period. That is set in stone. One more reason to hold onto it. The analog RGB is perfect for non-DVI equipped projectors.)


Matt what exactly does this mean, that the 6000 cannot downconvert HD? What is the advantage of this? I thought about buying two 811's should I get one 6000 and one 811 for the reasons you mentioned? I do have a non-dvi hd projector, and a non-dvi hd tv in the other room.


Thanks
 
""""""I asked if dumping copy once material was allowed and was told, "yes, as of right now that is exactly how it will work because it is part of the 5C spec." """""""""


sorry matt, i didn't understand/ i missed that this is what you had asked specifacally, or i would not have questioned you about the dump feature any futher, as you already had answered my question.

duh to me.


Yes Don, what Matt has said he wqas told about 5c and dish refusing to go beyond the spec, leads me to believe they just used the 5c dump spec in total; and puts that issue to rest in my mind. I agree it is a non factor.


The crashing you meantion does trouble me tho, but am confident that won't be a long term problem.


i am not surprised that the dvhs machines and 921 lose communication with each other, my 1394 devices do this every once in awhile , some more , some less... and not just 169time products.

i have the same mits 169time problem you have Don; sometimes it is ten minutes or ten days till the dvhs is forgotten. so at this point i wish they would just activate the 1394 ports with support for jvc dvhs..
 
"The crashing you meantion does trouble me tho, but am confident that won't be a long term problem."


Considering that both Macs and PC's still crash after 20 years, I'd think your statement is quite optimistic. IMO, as these receivers become more computer like in design, so will the inherrent natural troubles we have. Who knows, when they start integrating the internet... and how viruses begin to be designed to kill DBS DVR's The future is going to be quite interesting!
 
21 - 40 of 1,126 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top