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Discussion Starter · #1 ·


Dear Sir or Madam:


Thank you for your email correspondence. We appreciate you taking

the time to address your questions and concerns in writing. Questions and

feedback from our customers is vital in our continuing effort to provide

world class customer service.


Where your statement may have some validity, nothing of the sort has

been announced. It has always been our goal to provide the highest quality

product (programming and hardware) while remaining cost effective. DISH

Network is very good at this. If you take a look at all of our previous

products, the one common ground has been compatibility. Take our model 5000

receiver, this was one of our primary models. Before HDTV, before Dolby

Digital; yet it is fully compatible with both. The whole idea is to include

everybody, not exclude everybody. Please stay tuned to the Charlie Chat and

Technical Forum for our latest product news.


Your business is greatly appreciated and we thank you for allowing

us to be of assistance to you. If you have any further questions or

concerns, please refer to www.dishnetwork.com < http://www.dishnetwork.com&gt ;

or reply to this email and include all previous correspondence so that we

may assist you promptly.


If you are a current customer, you may also use our website to view

your current or previous billing statements, add services, or make payments

to your account. Please use the link below to launch yourself to the most

user-friendly Customer Support Center available today.
https://customersupport.dishnetwork.com/main.jsp

< https://customersupport.dishnetwork.com/main.jsp&gt ;


Sincerely,


Mark G.

Customer Care/Technical Support

DISH Network



**********Original Message**********


Name: Bruce Elmore

Account Number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Website Section: Charlie Chat

Subject: Equipment/Software


Message:

I understand that you will be releasing High Definition receivers

next year that will have DVI/HDCP outputs. I am very concerned about this

technology and DISH's willingness to support it. I own an HDTV and subscribe

to HBO-HD and until recently SHO-HD (cancelled due to lack of HD content).

If DISH decides the restrict High Definition viewing of any content to

subscriber's that have older 5000 or 6000 series receivers (that don't

support HDCP), I will be cancelling my service in short order and look for a

provider that allows all HDTV content to be viewed using my existing

equipment. Please have a technical agent call me and explain this to me.

Maybe you can keep me as a customer.
 

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FWIW, there is an abiguity in your request and their response. You say,
Quote:
If DISH decides the restrict High Definition viewing of any content to subscriber's that have older 5000 or 6000 series receivers (that don't support HDCP), I will be cancelling my service in short order and look for a provider that allows all HDTV content to be viewed using my existing equipment.
The ambiguity, from a "wordsmithing" angle, is that downrezed images of HDTV can be viewed by all. I'm not saying that that is what they are doing. In fact, Customer Disservice is obviously unaware of current events.



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The button is labeled "Play", not "Pay". STOP the MPAA!

Our Silent Angels

Please visit The Manny Page!
 

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Quote:
Where your statement may have some validity, nothing of the sort has been announced
Ouch. That's actually a STRONGER statement than I would have expected. They are acknowledging some validity to your argument, and simply saying they haven't announced anything yet.




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Alex
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Alex,


I'm surprised by Dish's response as well. For one thing, I expected an canned response that was more slickly written and completely ambiguous. I was curiously to hear if others have gotten similar responses from DISH. Has anyone sent them an e-mail on this issue?


To me, this response does nothing to reassure me. Obviously, they want to retain compatibility and obviously, they don't WANT to screw any of their customers. The question is whether or not they are going to yield to the pressure of the content providers to cripple the analog capabilities of the existing HDTV STBs.


Hell, they could maintain compatability by providing another add-on module that enables the 5000 and the 6000 to output DVI/HDCP. That doesn't help us out much! I'm much more concerned about retaining the compatibility of my set vs. my STB...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I think its safe to assume that the HDTV stream with be encrypted at the source, versus being encrypted by the STB. Because of this the 5000 may not become obsolete, but everything down the chain (the HDTV decoder and display) would be. Maybe that was the exact point you were trying to make...
 

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Talk about DISH speaking out of both sides of their mouth!! WOW!! On one hand they talk about trying to be the "inclusive" service and on the other hand they're acknowledging that they may EXCLUDE every existing HDTV owner. I've seen it all now.
 

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Would this even be a concern on the 5000? I thought that by using the HD adapter it would just send out whatever it received on an 8-VSB carrier to your tuner.
 

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Don't be too hard on Dish (or D* for that matter). It's really not their doing. The only programming they own is the demo channel and the Charlie chats. Everything else is rented under the terms of the owner (the studios or networks).


If Paramont for example requires it's features to be encrypted Dish has a simple choice, run it that way or skip it. They have no choice but to incorporate DVI to stay in the market. That doesn't mean they will always use it. And the studios while many are members of the MPAA, they are also cut-throat *******s just like any other big business. If one studio goes full bore DVI, you can bet another will use that to their advantage. "hey look, we allow free non-commercial access to our product".

 

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To avoid government interference, they won't turn off HD movies on STB analog outputs until early adopters are in the minority. Judging by the snails pace in HD sales, that point is a long ways off. But when that point is finally reached, we can kiss our projectors goodbye.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by tm22721:
To avoid government interference, they won't turn off HD movies on STB analog outputs until early adopters are in the minority. Judging by the snails pace in HD sales, that point is a long ways off. But when that point is finally reached, we can kiss our projectors goodbye.
1) There will be ample supply of cheap DVI CRT revceivers modified to have analog outputs to feed a projector. It's just too easy to do. As far as legal issues, I really don't see a case here against the sale of such devices. You still need to purchase the event or have a valid subscription. It's not bypassing the encryption system which would be illegal.


2) There will no doubt be DVI equipped projectors. I mean the projector manufactures are not going to simply close shop because of DVI. The too will license the technology.


3) By the time this all comes to pass you will probably be on your third generation projector anyway.

 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie:
1) There will be ample supply of cheap DVI CRT revceivers modified to have analog outputs to feed a projector. It's just too easy to do. As far as legal issues, I really don't see a case here against the sale of such devices. You still need to purchase the event or have a valid subscription. It's not bypassing the encryption system which would be illegal.


2) There will no doubt be DVI equipped projectors. I mean the projector manufactures are not going to simply close shop because of DVI. The too will license the technology.


3) By the time this all comes to pass you will probably be on your third generation projector anyway.

Glimmie,

Your wrong about #1, it does bypass the encryption because the output of the device is clear, anyone can connect a recording device and record. The DVI must be built into the display device or like the FP allow a card that has DVI be inserted into it. I have a G90 and I would find it hard to believe that Sony won't produce a DVI module for the G series projectors.


Jim

 

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Quote:
Originally posted by harlock:
Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie:
1) There will be ample supply of cheap DVI CRT revceivers modified to have analog outputs to feed a projector. It's just too easy to do. As far as legal issues, I really don't see a case here against the sale of such devices. You still need to purchase the event or have a valid subscription. It's not bypassing the encryption system which would be illegal.


2) There will no doubt be DVI equipped projectors. I mean the projector manufactures are not going to simply close shop because of DVI. The too will license the technology.


3) By the time this all comes to pass you will probably be on your third generation projector anyway.

Glimmie,

Your wrong about #1, it does bypass the encryption because the output of the device is clear, anyone can connect a recording device and record. The DVI must be built into the display device or like the FP allow a card that has DVI be inserted into it. I have a G90 and I would find it hard to believe that Sony won't produce a DVI module for the G series projectors.


Jim

No it does not bypass the encryption. If you do not have rights to the event, there will be no signal to the CRT. Your modified output jacks will be dark or have some message telling you you do not have access to this event. While it could be recorded, there is no consumer technology that can do that. The closest thing WAS WVHS. It is discontinued, inferior analog recording, and tape is expensive.


People who claim you can just slap HD analog video into a digitizing card and on to a hard disk may in fact be competent electrical engineers, but no nothing about video processing from a broadcast engineering sense..

 

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Glimmie,

It doesn't matter, the output is clear so one can copy it. If I purchase the event I can copy it or if I have a subscription to the event or movie channel I can copy it. It does bypass the protecting scheme that the MPAA is dictating to CEA and consumers. The point is that it can be copied, never mind that there really isn't a consumer device that can do this. MPAA wants to control everything and turn the play button into a pay button. Never mind that the piracy in US that MPAA is so worried about doesn't exist and wouldn't affect the real pirates because these pirates are outside the US. This has nothing to do with some one trying to bypass a PPV and get it free it has to with how it's sent to your TV. Right now it's sent analog and in the clear, MPAA wants it sent via a DVI device uncompressed and the TV must have DVI connector built into it.


Jim


Jim


[This message has been edited by harlock (edited 08-02-2001).]
 

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Here's a clip from HDTV Insider Newletter I received today:


"Kummer said that Echostar will try to "grandfather" their

current Model 6000 owners full resolution HDTV analog outputs, (when their always full resolution DVI/HDCP boxes appear) but he did not know if this would be agreeable to the content providers."


A glimmer of hope on the horizon?




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"I want my HDTV Set!"
 

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There is a Echostar Tech Chat on Monday the 6th, I think it is at 9:00 PM EDT but It might be 8, I'll have to check. I say that we should all try to call in, maybe someone will get through. If enough of us call it will give them something to think about at least.
 

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The trend in HDTV sets seems to be not to have any outputs whatsoever. For example, the new RCA 38" CRT direct view and the 65" RPTV were on display at my local Circuit City last month - and wonder-of-wonders, both had been calibrated and looked really good, lots better than the other brands beside them. These were not "HD ready", they have DirecTV receivers built in, and optional DBS dishes to go with them.


The 38" CRT unit has no outputs whatsoever. The 65" RPTV has audio outputs only, no video. There are also a couple of equivalent models from Proscan which have the same features and the same lack of video outputs.


I'll bet the MPAA approves. However, I decided the lack of video output jacks was a deal-killer, and went with a front projector. After a month of integrating components, I can view HD, and (until copy protection bites me) I have the normal and expected connectivity. But I'll bet that a bunch of people looking for "Instant HDTV" get rudely surprised when they try to buy an HD VCR or PVR for one of these expensive HDTVs, and find nowhere to plug it in.


Gary


[This message has been edited by Gary McCoy (edited 08-02-2001).]
 

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Harlock,


Since the TV has the DirectTV receiver built in there is no way to get even NTSC signals out of the TV. What that means is the the STB is built in and there is no way to use the built in STB with any other devices such as a plain old VCR. You can also forget about using any of the newer technologies such as the yet to be released HD-Tivo with the built in STB. You would need another HD STB to use your VCR or Tivo with a integrated TV/HD STB.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by harlock:
Glimmie,

It doesn't matter, the output is clear so one can copy it. If I purchase the event I can copy it or if I have a subscription to the event or movie channel I can copy it. It does bypass the protecting scheme that the MPAA is dictating to CEA and consumers. The point is that it can be copied, never mind that there really isn't a consumer device that can do this. MPAA wants to control everything and turn the play button into a pay button. Never mind that the piracy in US that MPAA is so worried about doesn't exist and wouldn't affect the real pirates because these pirates are outside the US. This has nothing to do with some one trying to bypass a PPV and get it free it has to with how it's sent to your TV. Right now it's sent analog and in the clear, MPAA wants it sent via a DVI device uncompressed and the TV must have DVI connector built into it.


Jim


Jim


[This message has been edited by harlock (edited 08-02-2001).]


My point is that if I or someone modifies a cheap DVI TV to feed someone's $25,000 projector they purchased a year ago, the MPAA or whoever has a very very weak case if any. Do you really think they care. Here is another paying customer they wouldn't have.


I work directly in the core Hollywood industry. This forum gives way too much authority to the MPAA. They are a weak trade organization trying to protect the theatres, thier primary interest. The real power is at the studio level many of whom are MPAA members.


All you people have is a technical specification for DVI. That doesn't mean it will be followed to the letter or that the studios will blindly encrypt everything. This forum is ramped with "the sky is falling" and few members actually understand the Hollywood business model. Hollywood loves home video. That's where they make the real money. The box office only covers the film cost IF they are lucky. Home video is pure profit. While they will agressivly try to stop any bootlegging, they won't do so at the cost of alienating theit paying customers.


DIVX was the proof of that.
 
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