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Distributed audio recommendation needed

2119 Views 14 Replies 6 Participants Last post by smoothtlk, May 19, 2021

GrandPixel

Discussion Starter · May 18, 2021

A friend asked me for advice on how to distribute audio in his house. I know there are several options or 'ecosystems' out there. But I don't have much hands-on experience in this area. I basically told him the major players are Sonos, Denon HEOS, and Yamaha Musiccast. Or he could use a more purpose-built distribution system like you can get from HTD, Parts Express (Dayton), or Monoprice. Some of their products are even the same product, just rebranded.

But I figure it comes down to flexibility / feature set (like some systems have the ability to integrate voice assistants like Alexa, and no matter what source you're playing, if you engage Alexa, it overrides the other audio. And some systems allow you to set up intercoms, etc). And also important is ease of use.

The other thing is that he doesn't currently have any kind of home theater system, or want to set that up necessarily, so it's just for music. He already has some speakers installed with wiring going to a closet. He has 2 in the front porch, 2 in the back porch, 4 in the kitchen, and I think 4 in his master bed and 2 in master bath. He said he wants front and back porch to be a zone, kitchen to be a zone, and master bed/bath to be a zone. But I would probably put front porch and back porch in separate zones.

It seems like if he doesn't want a home theater system right now, that a home theater receiver would be a waste. However, they do typically have all the features you'd need for a 3-zone distributed audio system in one product. So I'm not sure whether to recommend a receiver, or a more purpose-built distributed audio system.

Please advise. Thanks.

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GrandPixel

Discussion Starter · #2 · May 18, 2021

Oh I meant to mention.. I recently discovered hdmi matrix over ip, which can have basically an unlimited number of sources and outputs, converts hdmi to IP and sends it via ethernet to a switch, and you can use a web interface or app to route any source to any display or multiple displays. The systems are called HDBaseT, and another is called SDVoE - basically 2 competing technologies.

I also know that HTD has a device that can convert RCA analog stereo audio to ethernet and add it as a source to their distributed audio system. I wonder if there is a system that works like the HDBaseT but acts as an audio matrix. Or a hybrid that can do the same for audio and video. Does anyone know of such a system?

ezlotogura

· #3 · May 18, 2021

Sonos or heos are most easy to configure out of the box.

After a few bad experiences with monoprice hardware I just stick to them for cable needs

Savant/Control4 all have audio matrix products with multi channel amps that can do it as well.

Really depends on price point, diy vs custom install, what sources they listen to the most, etc

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smoothtlk

· #4 · May 18, 2021

GrandPixel said:
Oh I meant to mention.. I recently discovered hdmi matrix over ip, which can have basically an unlimited number of sources and outputs, converts hdmi to IP and sends it via ethernet to a switch, and you can use a web interface or app to route any source to any display or multiple displays. The systems are called HDBaseT, and another is called SDVoE - basically 2 competing technologies.

I also know that HTD has a device that can convert RCA analog stereo audio to ethernet and add it as a source to their distributed audio system. I wonder if there is a system that works like the HDBaseT but acts as an audio matrix. Or a hybrid that can do the same for audio and video. Does anyone know of such a system?

HDBaseT is Not ethernet. It uses Category Cable to send the video signal, but it's not ethernet. It is not connected to the ethernet network.
There IS video over Ethernet, but that's Not HDBaseT. Requires a really fast specialized network switch / network wiring. Because you are saying "virtually unlimited"...I think you are talking Video over IP (not HDBaseT).

There are lots of boxes that convert analog audio to streamed audio over ethernet (or Wifi). If you research "Dante" that is audio that is routable from transmitters to receiver(s).

HEOS is an easy pick over Sonos. Cheaper, much better integration with other systems, and subjectively, sound better for same type of speaker "box".

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Black95tt

· #5 · May 18, 2021

smoothtlk said:
HEOS is an easy pick over Sonos. Cheaper, much better integration with other systems, and subjectively, sound better for same type of speaker "box".

I don't know that I agree with this. Heos isn't really any cheaper at all. The speakers are about the same price/performance point, with the stand alone amps being just a tad cheaper. The only advantage I can see to HEOS is that it integrates with other Denon and Marantz products, but if you don't use those anywhere, it's a moot point. As far as sound quality, I think they are a toss up. The Sonos/Heos amps are geared towards pre-existing speakers (in ceiling, in wall, outdoor speakers etc), so that is more speaker dependent. Also, I don't think anyone goes into this hoping for Audiophile sound. I'm more than pleased with the few Sonos speakers/soundbars I have. They do the job of background music perfectly. The one thing I will say about Sonos is the ease of integration, and app navigation. It's very well laid out, and simple to use. Very high WAF. My whole family uses it on the daily, including my 10 year old daughter. If you make things like this even remotely difficult to use, the fact is no one will use it! That is where Sonos shines. Think of it as the Apple IOS of distributed audio. It's polished, and it just works.

To accomplish what your friend wants, he would probably buy a few Sonos amps, one for each zone. You could also buy a Beam or Playbar for the Master instead of using the already installed speakers, That way it could integrate into the TV if they have one. My system looks like this:

Garage: Sonos Amp
Kitchen: Sonos Amp
Deck: Sonos Amp
Master Bed: Sonos Beam (hooked to TV)
Master Bath: Sonos Amp
Bedroom 1: Sonos Play 1
Bedroom 2: Sonos Play 1
Basement Bar: Play 1 (upgrading to Beam to sit under TV)

Just an example of how one might lay this out with Sonos products. With that being said, there are countless ways to go about achieving this, but that is my two cents.

P.S. Don't rule out purchasing used Sonos products. I've had great luck with used Amps. Much cheaper in the aftermarket.

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smoothtlk

· #6 · May 18, 2021

Black95tt said:
I don't know that I agree with this.

The one thing I will say about Sonos is the ease of integration, and app navigation. It's very well laid out, and simple to use. Very high WAF. My whole family uses it on the daily, including my 10 year old daughter. If you make things like this even remotely difficult to use, the fact is no one will use it! That is where Sonos shines. Think of it as the Apple IOS of distributed audio.

Sonos integration is essentially DLNA only. ie: transport controls.

HEOS integration is select streaming provider, favorite channel, get coverart and metadata about the song. This allows for tight integration with a control system. Because you mention the Sonos app has good "app navigation", then sounds like you really aren't fully integrated at all as you are using the Sonos app for channel selection (that's all that Sonos supports). With HEOS, you only need the Denon app to set the HEOS up initially and then you never need it again because the experience is taken over by the control system and is then integrated with everything else in the house / business.

Our control system supports both as fully as Sonos / HEOS allows. And there is a major difference.

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NickTheGreat

· #7 · May 18, 2021

I really like my Sonos setup, although I've been having some issues of late, and so are my parents. But I think that is something on our ends, not Sonos's.

I have always felt like the area Sonos is lacking is in the Home Theater world. I mean, they sell hardware to integrate the two, but I don't really like the idea of having to have my AVR on to listen to music at the same time.

Now I do really like my Sonos soundbar and rear channels (5.0) in my living room TV. But it is not as good as my real AVR setup in my theater.

I planned for years to pull the CAT and Speaker cable to wire my house for audio. But never got around it it. Sonos is easy. Not without its issues, but fairly simple to set up and to use.

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Black95tt

· #8 · May 18, 2021

smoothtlk said:
Sonos integration is essentially DLNA only. ie: transport controls.

HEOS integration is select streaming provider, favorite channel, get coverart and metadata about the song. This allows for tight integration with a control system. Because you mention the Sonos app has good "app navigation", then sounds like you really aren't fully integrated at all as you are using the Sonos app for channel selection (that's all that Sonos supports). With HEOS, you only need the Denon app to set the HEOS up initially and then you never need it again because the experience is taken over by the control system and is then integrated with everything else in the house / business.

Our control system supports both as fully as Sonos / HEOS allows. And there is a major difference.

I understand what you are saying, however, it sounds like in this case there is no pre-existing control system to integrate into. They are looking for sound control only, in which case Sonos is still a good fit. I don't see the difference in using the Sonos App, or another control system that Sonos integrates into. Either way, you have to select what you want to hear and where, whether that is an app on your phone, a keypad, or a remote. You do the same steps you describe in the Sonos app: Select Streaming Provider, Channel, Room, Listen. I myself use Alexa for control. My system of integration is probably not optimal (smart things, Hue, various other hubs), but at the end of the day, I'm not fumbling with multiple apps to control my lighting, blinds, locks, sound, and video. I can't imagine the control being anymore seamless than it is, ignorance is bliss I guess

. Like I said, there are many ways to achieve what OP is looking for. Sonos is a simple solution that most people can set up themselves and be running in no time.

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GrandPixel

Discussion Starter · #9 · May 18, 2021

smoothtlk said:
Sonos integration is essentially DLNA only. ie: transport controls.

HEOS integration is select streaming provider, favorite channel, get coverart and metadata about the song. This allows for tight integration with a control system. Because you mention the Sonos app has good "app navigation", then sounds like you really aren't fully integrated at all as you are using the Sonos app for channel selection (that's all that Sonos supports). With HEOS, you only need the Denon app to set the HEOS up initially and then you never need it again because the experience is taken over by the control system and is then integrated with everything else in the house / business.

Our control system supports both as fully as Sonos / HEOS allows. And there is a major difference.

what would all my options be for control systems? What would you recommend? I always thought of savant and control4 as being super overpriced, only for the rich / not the diyer, but I don’t know that much about it.

eatenbacktolife

· #10 · May 18, 2021

For a handful of zones, can't go wrong with Sonos. Your friend needs to decide what music services are important. Sonos is still the only one with actual Spotify integration. All the others use Spotify connect, which I think is garbage. If Spotify is important this is something to research. I couldn't care less about Spotify, but it might matter to some and their use case.

I've used Bluesound before and still do, they integrate nicely but afaik still don't have Pandora which could be a deal breaker for some. My 15 year old squeezebox still supports Pandora.

eatenbacktolife

· #11 · May 18, 2021

smoothtlk said:
Sonos integration is essentially DLNA only. ie: transport controls.

HEOS integration is select streaming provider, favorite channel, get coverart and metadata about the song. This allows for tight integration with a control system. Because you mention the Sonos app has good "app navigation", then sounds like you really aren't fully integrated at all as you are using the Sonos app for channel selection (that's all that Sonos supports). With HEOS, you only need the Denon app to set the HEOS up initially and then you never need it again because the experience is taken over by the control system and is then integrated with everything else in the house / business.

Our control system supports both as fully as Sonos / HEOS allows. And there is a major difference.

Sonos integration/API has cover art (current playing and what's up next) and song/artist/title metadata. It also allows you to play favorites, and pull art from those favorites. At least with RTI and Crestron, I assume others are the same.

If your control system only supports transport controls you might want to talk with your developers.

smoothtlk

· #12 · May 18, 2021

eatenbacktolife said:
Sonos integration/API has cover art (current playing and what's up next) and song/artist/title metadata. It also allows you to play favorites, and pull art from those favorites. At least with RTI and Crestron, I assume others are the same.

If your control system only supports transport controls you might want to talk with your developers.

Sonos locked down the ability to browse the radio sources forcing you to use their app to do anything useful. Yes, you can browse and play favorites but that only good if you only listen to the same N things all the time.
With HEOS, all of the radios are exposed via their API. You can browse all of your services and add songs to your Favorites.

We are very familiar with both.

ezlotogura

· #13 · May 18, 2021

GrandPixel said:
what would all my options be for control systems? What would you recommend? I always thought of savant and control4 as being super overpriced, only for the rich / not the diyer, but I don’t know that much about it.

Using MSRP:
Control4 EA5 - controller of the system with 4-5 audio streams available - $2,000
8 zone amp - $1600
8x8 Audio Matrix - $1300
Figure 2-3 hours or programming that can be done by a remote programmer - let's call it $300-$400 in programming costs
Landing somewhere around $5,000 as you can likely get some discounts on these when purchasing. And there are forums where you can buy stuff second hand and probably do this for 30-40% less. If you are good with only 3 different music streams you can get a used EA3 right now for $450 here: c4Forums.com | The Largest Public Control4 Community | Established 2005

** I am not a dealer - these MSRP prices are what I found online and I know that is hit/miss with C4 so its just giving a good estimate **

And then you need speakers so that cost can vary. Toss in another $150 - it gets you 1 year of 4sight plus Composer Home Edition - PC software that lets you do 95% of the programming that a dealer can do. Still need a dealer to do bindings, add hardware and drives to the system but you can add your own music sources and do tons of programming in Composer Home Edition.

Black95tt said:
Garage: Sonos Amp
Kitchen: Sonos Amp
Deck: Sonos Amp
Master Bed: Sonos Beam (hooked to TV)
Master Bath: Sonos Amp
Bedroom 1: Sonos Play 1
Bedroom 2: Sonos Play 1
Basement Bar: Play 1 (upgrading to Beam to sit under TV)

Purely using this as a comparison (not saying the checklist is right or wrong for your use case)
Sonos Amp - $649 x 4 = $2596
Sonos Beam - $400
Sonos Play 1 $200 x 3 = $600
$3600

Is Sonos cheaper - sure. But for $2k or so more you also have a massive Control4 controller that can do loads of automation for you. Locks, Alarms, Cameras, HVAC, lighting, etc. Something your friend can add on to over time, nothing that has to be done day 1 per se (though always best to hardwire if you think you may be doing stuff down the road).

So is it worth the extra money to put into C4? Up to your friend obviously but its not like C4 is 3x the price. And this is just me personally I am not a fan of a speaker in the corner of the room on a shelf - rarely does it give you decent soundscape. I prefer in ceiling speakers because I feel it covers the room better - this is for "non critical" areas aka a kitchen, dining room, bedroom, master bathroom, etc. I used to have Sonos in my C4 system with various Play speakers but eventually I ditched it all because I wanted speakers in a ceiling and the Sonos Amps are crazy overpriced. I mean if you did all Sonos Amps for instance - 8 zones would be $5200 and then you still need speakers too. At that price, C4 is actually CHEAPER with better hardware (better amps, 8 inputs on the matrix for things other than Sonos services).

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eatenbacktolife

· #14 · May 19, 2021

smoothtlk said:
Sonos locked down the ability to browse the radio sources forcing you to use their app to do anything useful. Yes, you can browse and play favorites but that only good if you only listen to the same N things all the time.
With HEOS, all of the radios are exposed via their API. You can browse all of your services and add songs to your Favorites.

We are very familiar with both.

I'm well aware of what Sonos is and isn't capable of, along with all of the other competitors as I've used them all.

When you post stuff like this:

Sonos integration is essentially DLNA only. ie: transport controls. HEOS integration is select streaming provider, favorite channel, get coverart and metadata about the song.

Sonos integration does 75% of what you listed HEOS as doing. Either you're being purposefully obtuse or don't know. Sonos' integration is already dogshit compared to it's competitors, no reason to bury the lede.

smoothtlk

· #15 · May 19, 2021

No drama here.
No horse in the race either.
No "burying of the Lede"

The OP asked for opinions. I provided one and backed it up with specifics.

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