AVS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 52 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,086 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
[edited with additional references to some answers]

Thanks for all your expertise on this forum. I’m about to tackle DIY calibration of a 65X950H - probably start with HCFR, SDR only, which is the pattern generator I have (Raspberry Pi), and Sony does the translation from SDR to HDR anyway. The last time I did a calibration was on Panasonic and Kuro plasmas 10 years ago (with HCFR). My meter is i1Display Pro (not 10 years old).

I found a few nuggets on calibration specifics for this model on the owner’s thread (thanks @D-Nice and @Anderegg), and lots of breadcrumbs on calibrating Sony in general. But I’m not sure which breadcrumbs apply only to the Sony OLEDs which garner a lot more attention. I’m hoping those with more experience could confirm some of these best practices.
  1. I saw recommendations to start with two point calibration in basic with either 30/80 or 30/100, using bias/gain respectively. Does it matter which one? (It seemed like it did for OLED.) And I’m supposed to leave bias alone and not adjust it? This last bit is confusing to me.
  2. For 10 or 20 point calibration, set contrast to max, which lines up the calibration points better, and reset to 90 afterward.
  3. Per D-Nice in the owner’s thread, I should be calibrating to AWP x0.3094 y0.3357 due to metameric failure.
    1. Reference D-Nice’s post
      2020 Sony XBR-X950H owners thread (No Price Talk)
  4. Can I use BT.1886 function instead of linear gamma? I’ve seen references to Sony basing everything off Rec 709 and 2.2 gamma, so do I need to target this?
  5. What’s the appropriate display type in HCFR? I saw references to BG LED in Calman, what’s the equivalent? No need to use CCSS correction?
    1. Reference Ted’s post: use Generic CMF (RAW XYZ in Calman) if you don’t have a correction matrix.
      I1D3 QLED mode
      If you want to try someone’s uploaded CCSS correction file, you can find one for i1Display Pro for 49X950H at the displaycal database profiled with i1Studio
  6. D-Nice pointed out on Sony OLEDs that Dolby Vision Bright tracks EOTF more closely. I haven’t seen equivalent evidence for LCDs and I thought DoVi Dark was more accurate for X950H (per HDTVTest video, for one), but I noticed D-Nice set the X950H in Dolby Vision Bright, then compensated by lowering gamma -2 from the default 0. I’m a little confused here.
  7. I understand D-Nice’s methodology to be: calibrate Expert 2 in SDR with max nits, and use Expert 2 with HDR sources. However, I don’t have the luxury of separating inputs by SDR/HDR. Is this approach still useful?
  8. Calibrate with local dimming OFF. - YES
  9. Is it necessary to force limited range on HDMI video range with PGenerator set to RGB Full? This always confuses me. When I try this on my PC (RGB Full with Sony set to limited) lower grays above 16 get clipped. - YES per Rolls-Royce post #3
Are there any other potential pitfalls or details I’m missing?

Apologies for the long list but I did a lot of research and took notes. :p I also didn’t see an appropriate thread between 2018 Sony Master Series, Sony OLED, and Sony Calman calibration threads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
Below is what I've picked up in the last couple weeks from people I've spoken to and research I've done:

1) use the Gain controls for 80% and Bias for 30%
2) Recommendation is to use pre-calibration contrast and brightness patterns to adjust for both respectively. Then recheck after grey scale adjustments to verify you're not clipping white or crushing black.
3) He's a pro. Everything else I've read says typical D65 white point targets are fine.
4) Anderegg would tell you yes. The Colourspace documentation doesn't recommend it. 2.4 is probably a safer bet.
5) GENERIC CMF
6) He probably calibrates to 2.4 gamma, which is -2 on the gamma slider. So the calibration might be off if calibrated to 2.4 and using 2.2 on the slider. I personally find DV Dark in a dark room the better setting.
7) each input can retain it's own SDR/HDR settings, to my knowledge.
8) Correct
9)This one confused me as well. The correct settings according to the sources I've asked are :
SOFTWARE (HCFR, Colourspace ZRO) : 16-235 (patch scaling)
PGENERATOR: RGB FULL
TV: HDMI VIDEO SIGNAL LIMITED // sRGB B.T. 709

-- Let the tv and meter (plug in and take a measurement then wait) warm up before starting about 20/30 minutes.
-- Calibrate with the bias lighting on
-- Don't fall down the rabbit hole! -- Anderegg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,325 Posts
...Is it necessary to force limited range on HDMI video range with PGenerator set to RGB Full? This always confuses me. When I try this on my PC (RGB Full with Sony set to limited) lower grays above 16 get clipped.
This was actually discussed a few days ago. When you use a PGenerator set to RGBFull but with the software set for 16-235, you are, roughly speaking, sending a 16-235 signal in a 0-255 "wrapper". In Auto, the TV responds to the "wrapper" and sets itself to receive a 0-255 signal when in reality it's getting 16-235, so you have to manually set it to Limited/Low. When you are trying it with the PC, you are in actuality sending a full 0-255 signal but the TV is manually set for 16-235. It sounds like the same thing, but it's really apples and oranges.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
I also have 65X950H that I would like to calibrate. I have i1 display pro. I plan to use a free pattern generator, like mobileforge. I plan to buy CalMan Home for Sony, assuming that it is already compatible with 2020 TVs (no official mention on their download page). The only thing difficult to find is a step-by-step guide how to configure and run CalMan to perform the calibration of 65X950H.
Would this thread be the place to collect all settings in one place?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,086 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
This was actually discussed a few days ago. When you use a PGenerator set to RGBFull but with the software set for 16-235, you are, roughly speaking, sending a 16-235 signal in a 0-255 "wrapper". In Auto, the TV responds to the "wrapper" and sets itself to receive a 0-255 signal when in reality it's getting 16-235, so you have to manually set it to Limited/Low. When you are trying it with the PC, you are in actuality sending a full 0-255 signal but the TV is manually set for 16-235. It sounds like the same thing, but it's really apples and oranges.
Thank you - I realized it’s pretty apparent if you have HDMI Video Range set incorrectly. With RPi PGen = Full and software patch setting to 16-235, the 0% black pattern will look gray if you leave TV Video Range on Auto.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,086 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I also have 65X950H that I would like to calibrate. I have i1 display pro. I plan to use a free pattern generator, like mobileforge. I plan to buy CalMan Home for Sony, assuming that it is already compatible with 2020 TVs (no official mention on their download page). The only thing difficult to find is a step-by-step guide how to configure and run CalMan to perform the calibration of 65X950H.
Would this thread be the place to collect all settings in one place?
Have you seen this video?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,086 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
5) RG phosphor for i1 display pro with the 950H
Thanks for this list of tips and responses, very helpful.

Regarding meter compensation, here’s what Ted said (post #4): I1D3 QLED mode

“Generic CMF (Color Matching Function) is the default i1Display PRO table. Its called RAW XYZ from the display type list you see in CalMAN.” RAW XYZ is what the Calman guys recommend.
 

·
Oppo Beta Group
Joined
·
11,625 Posts
Does or will Sony support pattern internal pattern generation for autocal?

- Rich
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,325 Posts
They haven't announced it, so the answer is probably no.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
“Generic CMF (Color Matching Function) is the default i1Display PRO table. Its called RAW XYZ from the display type list you see in CalMAN.” RAW XYZ is what the Calman guys recommend.
Thanks, using RG phosphor may have been leading to the yellow/green from my HCFR calibration. Switched the Generic CMF.

Per Ted "
The meter tables if i1Display PRO based on old display data (2011-2012) so it's better to use Generic CMF."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
Here is where I arrived last night:

Custom/Warm: Using for SDR content in the evening or at night
BT. 1886 // [email protected] cd/m2

Custom for Pro1/Expert1: Using for certain SDR content and HDR in the evening or at night
2.2 gamma // D65 @ 100cd/m2

Custom for Pro2/Expert2: Calibrated with MAX backlight. Using for SDR/HDR/DV during the day.
2.2 gamma // D65 @ 100cd/m2

Great contrast, shadow details, and black level is even better now. Still some blooming in HDR/DV, but seems much reduced. Colors are perfect it seems.

So it seems Dolby Vision (both Bright and Dark) maps its own per-color adjustments (Primary and Secondary) apart from the the calibrated values. I asked Ted and he isn't sure what sort of voodo Sony uses to derive the DV settings. I'll chat with Sony and see if this is the normal behavior.

will report back on that.

EDIT: Sony chat confirmed Dolby Vision maps its own per-color adjustments and it's expected. So your calibrated primary and secondary colors will not be used in DV modes.

I also will go through the apps I use and report how each handles the settings for SDR/HDR and dolby vision. Will post back later.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,086 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
EDIT: Sony chat confirmed Dolby Vision maps its own per-color adjustments and it's expected. So your calibrated primary and secondary colors will not be used in DV modes.

I also will go through the apps I use and report how each handles the settings for SDR/HDR and dolby vision. Will post back later.
Should one just copy the calibrated primary/secondary CMS corrections to the Dolby Vision mode? Or is that not how DoVi works?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
Should one just copy the calibrated primary/secondary CMS corrections to the Dolby Vision mode? Or is that not how DoVi works?
Sony chat recommended setting the Color Temp (Expert 1 or 2 if calibrated) and leaving the per-color adjustments alone. DV will map it's own color adjustments.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,086 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thanks for confirming. I'm impressed the chat support had this detail of technical knowledge. Kudos to Sony.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Here is where I arrived last night:

Custom/Warm: Using for SDR content in the evening or at night
BT. 1886 // [email protected] cd/m2

Custom for Pro1/Expert1: Using for certain SDR content and HDR in the evening or at night
2.2 gamma // D65 @ 100cd/m2

Custom for Pro2/Expert2: Calibrated with MAX backlight. Using for SDR/HDR/DV during the day.
2.2 gamma // D65 @ 100cd/m2

Great contrast, shadow details, and black level is even better now. Still some blooming in HDR/DV, but seems much reduced. Colors are perfect it seems.

So it seems Dolby Vision (both Bright and Dark) maps its own per-color adjustments (Primary and Secondary) apart from the the calibrated values. I asked Ted and he isn't sure what sort of voodo Sony uses to derive the DV settings. I'll chat with Sony and see if this is the normal behavior.

will report back on that.

EDIT: Sony chat confirmed Dolby Vision maps its own per-color adjustments and it's expected. So your calibrated primary and secondary colors will not be used in DV modes.

I also will go through the apps I use and report how each handles the settings for SDR/HDR and dolby vision. Will post back later.
Could you please make your full calibrated settings available, in a list or table, or a screen shot?

I got the CalMan software yesterday night and ran the calibration for SDR.
I used the Mobileforge app as generator, casting from an android phone to nvidia shield and then going through AVR to HDMI 3. I used I1Display Pro with RAW XYZ setting.
In the step for luminance check, my readings were clipped at 1. The CalMan video guide showed that nothing was clipping and readings followed the yellow line. Not sure how to interpret this.

In general, I don't see any dramatic improvement after calibration :(
Previously I used the settings from D-nice (minus 20 point color tweaks), so the gamma was at -2 for SDR. Now, the calibration set the gamma to 0.
I had a feeling that previously the colors was rich in yellow/gold in a very pleasing way. Now I don't see it that much, it is kind of green at times.
So either I am doing something wrong, or the OOTB colors with D-nice settings were better?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,325 Posts
That generator setup is a problem. You have far too many variables and it is not giving you accurate patterns. See here for more information on this:
You will be better off with a Raspberry Pi 3B + and the PGenerator software. It is a known-accurate solution, is inexpensive, and CalMAN can control it directly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Can you tell by looking at these results whether calibration was performed correctly? In general, how do I verify if there is any proper improvement done?

3078900
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
That generator setup is a problem. You have far too many variables and it is not giving you accurate patterns. See here for more information on this:
You will be better off with a Raspberry Pi 3B + and the PGenerator software. It is a known-accurate solution, is inexpensive, and CalMAN can control it directly.
Reading the post you shared, it says: "RPi is completely bit accurate only with RGB Full output with LightSpace or CalMAN videoscale set to 16-235".
How do I interpret this? My understanding is that normal type of signal for video equipment is YCbCr. If PGenerator sends RGB signal to the TV, is this still a correct way to calibrate it?
What is the recommended bit depth of the signal, and the range (0-255 or 16-235 or other) ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,325 Posts
RGB absolutely is a correct way to calibrate. The PGenerator is also the only economical way - when used with an HDFury box to insert metadata into the signal - to generate patterns for calibrating HDR at the current time (YCbCr for SDR and HDR require different calculations and the only pattern generators that can do this are $1500 USD and up). Although there are available pattern discs and sets for HDR, it is difficult if not impossible for the makers of those discs to include all of the patterns needed as TV manufacturers increasingly use different and non-standard (5% - 10%, etc) adjustment steps for gray scale in HDR and now SDR.
This thread has more information about the unit:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
RGB absolutely is a correct way to calibrate. The PGenerator is also the only economical way - when used with an HDFury box to insert metadata into the signal - to generate patterns for calibrating HDR at the current time (YCbCr for SDR and HDR require different calculations and the only pattern generators that can do this are $1500 USD and up). Although there are available pattern discs and sets for HDR, it is difficult if not impossible for the makers of those discs to include all of the patterns needed as TV manufacturers increasingly use different and non-standard (5% - 10%, etc) adjustment steps for gray scale in HDR and now SDR.
This thread has more information about the unit:
I ran calibration using PGenerator couple of times. It started a bit worse then my calibration using MobileForge (screen in the post above), when it comes to average and max deltas. But then something happened and the results are totally problematic. I have no idea how to fix it.

3079443
 
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Top