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Discussion Starter #1
Just curious if anyone has looked into doing a DIY version of the single 10" coax JTR and if it would be worth it? They seem to be extremely well reviewed by those who own them, and from what I saw from someone who opened one up they use a standard B&C 10FCX64 coax. Looks like that coax on its own is only 25% the price that the speakers sell for. The box is a sealed box 16x11x8, which seems simple enough. That leaves the crossover, which is what I don't know anything about. Is the crossover likely to be that complex and expensive that there's no point even trying to build something like this? Even if it was another few hundred to build a crossover it seems like you'd still be well ahead, though depends on where you can get individual components I suppose. Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm not a speaker designer but just looking at the cost of the driver vs the finished product I figured it was worth asking if something can be done that will perform roughly the same.
 

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You could use a minidsp 2x4 and employ an active crossover.
 

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Matt Grant would probably build you a killer crossover for a reasonable price. It wouldn't be THAT expensive at all. There's a lot of overhead in commercially producing a product that DIY'ers don't have to worry about.. I believe the estimated markup on store-sold speakers is ~500-600%? Internet direct is less, but they gotta pay the staff.. ;)
 

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What does that do that a Volt 10 or even a Radian 5210 won't do? Both of these already have existing DIY crossovers.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Matt Grant would probably build you a killer crossover for a reasonable price. It wouldn't be THAT expensive at all. There's a lot of overhead in commercially producing a product that DIY'ers don't have to worry about.. I believe the estimated markup on store-sold speakers is ~500-600%? Internet direct is less, but they gotta pay the staff.. ;)
Thanks! I see Matt is listed as a designer on a lot of the DIYSG builds, is he here on AVS or just through DIYSG? I figured its definitely "possible" to build a reasonably priced crossover, just depends on if anyone with experience in speaker design would actually want to bother doing it or not. Being that its kind of a one off thing where I haven't seen other people here asking for this clone, then maybe the time it would take someone like Matt may cost more than just buying the retail speaker, I honestly have no idea.

What does that do that a Volt 10 or even a Radian 5210 won't do? Both of these already have existing DIY crossovers.
Honestly I don't know as I haven't listened to them, that's why I figured I'd ask if it was worth looking into on here. I just remember reading through the JTR owners thread a while back when I was debating getting some of their speakers, and there were a few posters that had used Volts as surrounds with JTR LCR and didn't seem super thrilled with them. Granted a small sample size, but its all I have to go by and from what I read the Noesis 110HT's are extremely well received by people who have them. Maybe that's just brand bias showing and there wouldn't be a perceptible difference between a 110HT and a Volt 10 in room?
 

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It's not clear to me the reason to believe that the Volts and the Noesis would sound the same... other than some packaging similarities. A volt is probably a good "looks similar if you're squinting" model but I'm not sure they sound similar at all. Interesting project.
 

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Thanks! I see Matt is listed as a designer on a lot of the DIYSG builds, is he here on AVS or just through DIYSG?
He's here, don't know how much interest he would have in this but here goes - @mtg90
 

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Discussion Starter #8
It's not clear to me the reason to believe that the Volts and the Noesis would sound the same... other than some packaging similarities. A volt is probably a good "looks similar if you're squinting" model but I'm not sure they sound similar at all. Interesting project.
Yeah like I say, no idea personally if they're similar at all, that's part of what I was trying to gauge here. I just know I've read a lot of praise from those that have the Noesis 110HT's, and given the price of them I'm a bit surprised I've never seen any other interest in doing a DIY version since we already know what the driver and cabinet are. Seems like if you could figure out the crossover and build your own at 1/2 the price it could be a nice project.
 

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It is similar to cooking. Even if you know all the ingredients it's still difficult to make it taste good. I'm not sure if Jeff at JTR does his own crossover design, but he seems to have a good recipe for success. Which might not be easily duplicated unless you have a donor JTR xo to analyze and copy. Which may be the easiest way to copy the design. Buy one and reverse engineer it. Then either sell that one or use it as the center channel.

I have a feeling the diysg guys may have a problem with copying a design from another friendly diy guy. Jeff has been a good asset to our little community and it's not cool to steal his design and make money off of it. It's not a problem if you want to do it for yourself, but making money off of it crosses a line in my opinion. If you were copying a behringer product then do your worst, they are no stranger to that. But JTR isn't behringer, and Jeff is a regular dude trying to sell speakers.

I think the active approch would be the easiest to do if you don't already have a big pile of xo components to test. That is where I stuggle. Sucks to have to buy all those values to see which one you need.
 

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It's not clear to me the reason to believe that the Volts and the Noesis would sound the same... other than some packaging similarities. A volt is probably a good "looks similar if you're squinting" model but I'm not sure they sound similar at all. Interesting project.
That wasn't my intention with my comment. I was just meaning, it's a high efficiency coax. There are already high efficiency coaxes in the DIY world. If that's what OP is wanting, try one, but if he's wanting a JTR duplicate, it's probably easiest to buy the 110HT.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
It is similar to cooking. Even if you know all the ingredients it's still difficult to make it taste good. I'm not sure if Jeff at JTR does his own crossover design, but he seems to have a good recipe for success. Which might not be easily duplicated unless you have a donor JTR xo to analyze and copy. Which may be the easiest way to copy the design. Buy one and reverse engineer it. Then either sell that one or use it as the center channel.

I have a feeling the diysg guys may have a problem with copying a design from another friendly diy guy. Jeff has been a good asset to our little community and it's not cool to steal his design and make money off of it. It's not a problem if you want to do it for yourself, but making money off of it crosses a line in my opinion. If you were copying a behringer product then do your worst, they are no stranger to that. But JTR isn't behringer, and Jeff is a regular dude trying to sell speakers.

I think the active approch would be the easiest to do if you don't already have a big pile of xo components to test. That is where I stuggle. Sucks to have to buy all those values to see which one you need.
The bolded is the part I thought may cause an issue, I wasn't sure how cloning/copying someone else's product might go over. To be clear, I'd have zero intention of selling these. I'm just looking at a very well regarded speaker, that is out of my price range, especially when getting 4-8 of them and taking into account currency conversion and shipping across a border, and seeing that I can source the driver JTR uses domestically for <25% the cost of the finished speaker and build my own boxes relatively easy. The crossover is the missing component that I can't do. If someone like Matt could do it for even a couple hundred bucks each I'd still see myself as ahead. If its gonna be x amount of hours to design and test at $30-40 per hour then maybe it's too difficult/costly and there's no point.

The active crossover with a MiniDSP is interesting, though that required external amplification after the MiniDSP correct? I like the high sensitivity designs like JTR because they can be driven quite well with just an AVR, so I wouldn't need to invest in a bunch of amps right away.
 
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The minidsp is a popular option, and yes you will need two amp channels for each speaker. Doing an active setup for two speakers or three isn't too complicated, but doing it for 5-7-9 channels gets increasingly complicated. Once you start to include the price of all of the extra amp channels then the passive option becomes more desirable.

If someone is willing to take on this xo design they would likely already have a large selection of xo components, and the passive option would be the better option in that case.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Yeah I'm looking at 7.1.4 Atmos, so the active crossovers would be out in that case, too much amplification required.

My plan right now would be getting JTR 212HTR for L/C/R, then doing the best I can for surrounds and Atmos to match. The Volts may be more than enough, and I'm sure some will say just go that route as a high sensitivity coax, but some JTR owners have indicated not loving them with their JTR fronts and have said the 110HT's are fantastic, so I figured its worth some effort to avoid the "what if" with myself. I've read they're even very impressive as fronts, so if I had just the 8 of these off the start I could use them for 7.1 or 5.1.2 with a spare, then save up a year or two to buy the 212HTR's for fronts and at that point move the front 110's up to Atmos duty.

Rough math of 8 110HT's x $1125US each with discount x 1.3ish conversion gives me just under $12000CAN plus shipping, which unless something changes for me in the next couple years just isn't happening. Alternatively I can get 8 B&C 10FCX64's from a Canadian supplier for $372 each with free shipping, so $3000CAN, plus even a few hundred for materials, still gives me quite a bit of extra $ to spend on crossovers and come out well ahead, if it can be done. For example even if the crossovers would be $500 apiece that's still saving $4-5k. If the price difference was fairly close I could see just ordering from JTR but at a 75% difference it seemed to be worth looking into. Volts would be a bit cheaper yet, but as far as I know DIYSG doesn't ship to Canada so there'd be more logistics and cost for me to figure out, and if that ends up with the price roughly the same I'd prefer the JTR clones.
 

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Pick up a DIYSG Vortex 12 when they come back.

The Volt10 is a very very capable design and in my opinion best bang for the buck out there. The quality is awesome in terms of acoustical performance. Output is more than you will ever need for ear level and Atmos surrounds. I run 8 Volt8s right now for those channels and a LCR soundstage of very high output custom designd cabs as well as JTR and DIY high end subwoofer arrays. I put the time and money in the LCR and LFE, the V10s do an incredible job of filling in the rest.

IMHO the B&C while an outstanding Coax for use as a PA Pro Floor Wedge or even LCR is great, surround use its totally overkill.

Have you seen the passive crossover deisgn created for the 110? Please take a look at it. Its very very robust and more than just a simple 6 component LP/HP. The cost of it alone I bet is a couple hundred $$$ each.


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Discussion Starter #15
Pick up a DIYSG Vortex 12 when they come back.

The Volt10 is a very very capable design and in my opinion best bang for the buck out there. The quality is awesome in terms of acoustical performance. Output is more than you will ever need for ear level and Atmos surrounds. I run 8 Volt8s right now for those channels and a LCR soundstage of very high output custom designd cabs as well as JTR and DIY high end subwoofer arrays. I put the time and money in the LCR and LFE, the V10s do an incredible job of filling in the rest.

IMHO the B&C while an outstanding Coax for use as a PA Pro Floor Wedge or even LCR is great, surround use its totally overkill.

Have you seen the passive crossover deisgn created for the 110? Please take a look at it. Its very very robust and more than just a simple 6 component LP/HP. The cost of it alone I bet is a couple hundred $$$ each.


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I'll have to look into the Vortex 12. I'm not familiar with it, but I know a lot of past designs have been taken off of the DIYSG site for now. Wasn't sure what all will come back/be added in the future.

I'm not trying to come across as implying the Volts wouldn't sound great, or have more than enough output. I'm pretty sure I could order them, love them and have no issues for years at higher volumes than I'm comfortable with 99% of the time. I may not even know if I was missing anything in comparison to the JTRs. It doesn't help that I live in rural Saskatchewan so demoing anything is pretty much impossible unless I'm getting on a plane somewhere across the border. But others who have ordered/heard the 110HT's seem to be floored with them from what I've read and view them as a step up. And I just know how common upgraditis is in the world of AVS, and that my personality is very susceptible to that type of "what if" questioning and wanting to go to the next level just in case. So instead of doing what most do on here and climb up the ladder in multiple steps, going from zero to totally overkill in one move might be preferable for me.

As far as the crossover goes, I did find a fairly close up picture of it. But I don't know enough about crossovers to know what I'm looking at. I figured it would be pretty high end as that's how Jeff seems to make everything and I don't imagine he has crazy markups. I just calculated I've got a solid $8000CAN difference between the finished speakers, and the components I can get sans crossover. If getting 8 crossovers built is gonna cost me 70-80% of that, then I'm better off not bothering on this project. But if its gonna cost <50% of that, then it becomes appealing.
 
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Umm... You can buy or build crossovers for way cheaper than you think. Research filter designs like 4th order linkwitz-riley, figure out the desired crossover frequency, say 2k, buy the parts online and solder them together. I'm leaning towards volt10 myself for the same reasons (JTR is priced a little out of my league for a non-dedicated theater room). If I design my own crossovers for a different coax I'd be happy to share my results. Those JTR212's look pretty good on paper though!
 

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Could I take that B&C coaxial and design a crossover that gives you something similar to the 110HT? Sure.

Would I be willing to do that? No.

I know Jeff personally and know the kind of engineering that he puts into his speakers intimately, there are at least a few dozen JTR speakers and subs out there that I personally assembled. While I may often design speakers that compete in the same arena as those Jeff sells, directly copying one of his designs would certainly be crossing the line.
 

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It is unlikely that you're going to be able to copy a thoughtful passive crossover design that was put together after a pile of design engineering, trial and swap and trial and swap and a bunch of measurement iterations, short of getting your hands on a model, and seeing what was done, and copying the components.

You can probably get somebody with the right knowledge and software to design you a passive crossover with that same driver setup, but that's not going to be the same speaker, and if they're doing a good job, it'll probably cost a chunk of change. If they're doing a really good job, it will probably cost a whole lot, possibly more than just buying a whole set of speakers, and it should, because it will be a lot of time on their part, time that if you had the expertise you were paying for, you would have to spend yourself, and your time is worth something.

You can probably grab a generic passive crossover to make it work, but it'll probably work poorly.

For DIY speakers, I really, really like active speakers based on DSP. You need to have a fundamental understanding on what you're trying to do if you want to make the most out of it, and it's more than just setting crossover points and matching driver levels, but it's way faster to implement, test, and make changes, and has lots of potential technical advantages over a passive design, but you do need to buy amplifiers not included in your AVR so...

If you want to build speakers to save money, I'd suggest a pre-made kit where everything is already worked out. You save a good chunk.

If you cannot afford a setup of JTR speakers, but would like to build some of your own, save up for one, and then see what you can do.

JMO.
 

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Colin has a lot of very valid points here. I'm an Electronics Engineer that has done simple filter design since my car audio installer days back in the 80's, so what seems simple and straight forward to me on the surface may actually be a rabbit hole for someone less familiar with the process or those who struggle to make decision. I probably shouldn't have painted such a rosy picture but the parts aren't expensive if you have a design. If you are paying someone to do r&d for you, then yes it can be pricey. I'm also living proof about my time is worth something since I'm considering both the Volt's and the JTR's (even though I'm capable of designing my own crossover and building custom enclosures). The one thing holding me back is the dimensions of the enclosures for the JTR, and the limitations on driver selection for the Volt... now I like the Volt driver selections, I'm just wondering the same as the OP, which is, can I do better for slightly more $$$. Conversely I could buy a JTR and remove the guts and put them in my own cabinets, but that seems like the most painful approach.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Umm... You can buy or build crossovers for way cheaper than you think. Research filter designs like 4th order linkwitz-riley, figure out the desired crossover frequency, say 2k, buy the parts online and solder them together. I'm leaning towards volt10 myself for the same reasons (JTR is priced a little out of my league for a non-dedicated theater room). If I design my own crossovers for a different coax I'd be happy to share my results. Those JTR212's look pretty good on paper though!
Cool, thanks! Yeah if I had the funds I'd just order 11 speakers and a couple subs from JTR and move on, but unfortunately that's nowhere near my budget. I'd definitely be interested to see what you come up with!

Could I take that B&C coaxial and design a crossover that gives you something similar to the 110HT? Sure.

Would I be willing to do that? No.

I know Jeff personally and know the kind of engineering that he puts into his speakers intimately, there are at least a few dozen JTR speakers and subs out there that I personally assembled. While I may often design speakers that compete in the same arena as those Jeff sells, directly copying one of his designs would certainly be crossing the line.
That's fair. Wasn't sure where the line would be for different people on this forum, as I've seen other components cloned before and the B&C 10FCX64 isn't proprietary to JTR but available for anyone to buy. But Jeff is a lot more into this community and highly respected than a large company like Klipsch or Behringer. Doesn't necessarily have to be clone either, like @12gauge said its me looking at the Volts, and while thinking they'll probably be more than enough, wondering if I can do better for more $. The question becomes how much better and how much more $ to get there, which is where I defer to the experts on here. I look at the 110HT as the ceiling of what can be done, so that was the logical starting point for a template. Maybe that means buying the drivers, and seeing if someone is willing to design crossovers that will work, or copy the ones that already exist. Maybe its a completely different coax and crossover altogether.

The Volts are likely the easiet way to go in the end, I've got quite a bit of time before needing anything though so I'll keep researching and looking into different options and see where it takes me.
 
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