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Greetings,

Looking for some recommendations on a DIY build. First off I have a problem, I cant make up my mind and in doing so I have bought a good amount of drivers that now go unused in a closet. There's always something about one of my builds that just doesn't do it for me and i rip it apart. This has caused issues with the wife, although I have NO WAF- and can build what ever I want when I want so long as we can afford it my wife is angered by the pile of box's and drivers sitting and taking up space and worst off all, wasted money!.

I gave up on DIY about 6-8months ago and just bought Klipsch R41M's as bed layer and figure Id be happy with using subs to fill in all the bass. I told my self, Hey I can be like a lot of people and pretend bass matters not and sending everything to the subs is fine and is not noticeable. I even convinced my self that I can just use subs for music and not be bothered with the fact I cant just kick on some music without having to turn a bunch of other stuff on. HAHAH right like that worked.

This is why 90% of the kits out there suck for our application, I hate having speakers I have to dump all the bass into subs. You can shake your head and fist all you want, but it wont change the fact I hate it and I can and do localize bass.
Now onto the even dumber stuff- I even wasted money $1100 on SEVEN Kali LP-6 speakers. They are pretty good for movies in the bass region but lifeless up high to us. The Klipsch have decent high end but as would expect low end is not there and having to turn on subs every time I want to listen to music really grinds my gears.

Even more stupidity! I was even thinking of gutting the Klipsch and using the horn with something I have in a closet. But me being on a spending lock down, I'm limited to REW and UMIK-1 so testing and measuring is limited to the capabilities of them. Also I have zero space to measure, the best I can do is run a USB to my front porch and try and snag FRD's there as our laptops suffered at the hands of our kids. I dont have DATS to take ZMA of the horns so that's not a good thing, and telling the wife whom I promised I'm done with DIY with the exception of cobbling together something out of the money pit I already have that I want to spend another $130 on one thing just to get zma files...I'm sure that will go over nicely. One tool ill use once then sit in a box....whats the worst that can happen?

I did convince her I "may" need a few more parts to complete this going away task-but its been almost a week and I still get angry mumbles and reminders about it.. My Goal- take what I have and make something I can be happy with and leave DIY speakers alone until life settles down. I want to build the 5 bed layer speakers, If I can build all 7 I will, but if i dont have the parts/drivers for the remaining 2 speakers I can wait. I dont have space for towers for all three front stage speakers. Front L&R I can but the center channel is limited as we use a TV. I can get away with 16"H-15"W-15(ish)"D. I may be able to add another 4-5" of height if I alter our media/tv stand we built.

I want to make them all have a F3 of about 40HZ, I dont need to go full blown full-range, just be able to cross at 40hz. Hell even the Kali lp-6 has a F3 of 47Hz. Anyway sorry for the babbling, What would you do or recommend? Anyone interested in helping an idiot out? Not looking for anyone to build anything just help design/mock up speakers. I'll be doing all the physical irl work- building box's, putting stuff together etc. II just need opinions and aid in mocking up a layout/design and XO. I cant be trusted to make a XO- last one I made literally hurt my ears. No joke- id pop on music and after a few min my ears would start hurting.

Here is a list of all the speakers, drivers and crossover components I have available to me.

7~~Kali LP-6. Good low end, mids and highs are lifeless and dull.
6~~Klipsch R41M. Half way decent highs- helps its a WG/Horn I love horns. Lows blows
10~~Dayton RS225-4
5~~Dayton RST28F
7~~Dayton RS100-8
6~~Peerless SDS 160F25PR01-08
5~~Peerless by Tymphany XT25SC90-04

XO PARTS

7~~ 1.5mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor Crossover Coil
10/12~~DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
5/7 ~~DMPC-4.7 4.7uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
7~~DNR-5.1 5.1 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
10+~~DNR-3.0 3 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
7~~DMPC-20 20uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
5~~0.25mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
1~~10mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor Crossover Coil
5/7~~2.0mH 18 AWG Core Inductor Crossover Coil
10+ ~~DNR-2.0 2 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
7~~DFFC-0.33 0.33uF 400V By-Pass Capacitor
7~~33uF 100V Electrolytic Non-Polarized Crossover Capacitor
7~~DFFC-0.01 0.01uF 400V By-Pass Capacitor
7~~0.30mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
5~~0.13mH 18 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor Crossover Coil
5~~DMPC-2.7 2.7uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
5~~DMPC-3.3 3.3uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
20+ ~~DNR-1.0 1 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
5~~0.40mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
5~~10uF 400V MKP Metalized Polypropylene Foil
5~~DMPC-0.10 0.10uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
7~~100uF 100V Electrolytic Non-Polarized Crossover Capacitor
7~~DNR-6.5 6.5 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
7~~DNR-4.7 4.7 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
7~~2.2uF 400 VDC Audiophiler MKP Audio Grade
7~~DMPC-6.8 6.8uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor


Help me AVS community, you're my only hope :)
 

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Can’t help myself but to post this... subwoofers are localizable and “having to dump all the bass into subs”? Four PA-460’s with tons of midbass output with high sensitivity in those frequencies... but the problem is having subs play midbass.

hmmm... I wonder why you feel that way based on the frequency response graphs you posted in the other thread...

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I cant make up my mind
LTDR 🧐 the solution is simple:
Go with the biggest pair you can afford.
If that fails, then the most expensive / best / prettiest one you can afford.
Generally that works...
But just remember not to travel too far up the crazy-side of the hot-matrix chart when selecting. 😄
 

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Discussion Starter #7
LTDR 🧐 the solution is simple:
Go with the biggest pair you can afford.
If that fails, then the most expensive / best / prettiest one you can afford.
Generally that works...
But just remember not to travel too far up the crazy-side of the hot-matrix chart when selecting. 😄

:cry: I cant that's why im doing this build. Dont have the budget to buy anything. I have to make something outta the box's of unused drivers. This will hold me over until I can get enough saved to buy something nicewe just bought a house and a suv so its tight around here
 

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A few thoughts,

I would sniff arouund in the Tech Talk forum at Parts Express and see how far you can push your 8 inch woofer and that 28mm dome tweeter. They would know, from an initial look that woofer can easily do 35Hz if the cabinet is the right size and kicks butt to 1,000 Hz. Generally speaking, you can push 8 inch woofers to cross at 2,000 to 2,300 Hz if they are smooth enough or the crossover can notch peaks etc. to the tweeter. Most dome tweeters will struggle below 3,000 Hz which explains why 8 inch two-ways are no very common. Not sure what that 28mm dome will do, might make it down to 2,300Hz with a steep filter to protect it. The very successful designs using that 8 inch woofer tend to be three-ways, they have one of the designs on tech talk.

Generally speaking, most "2.5 ways" or the dual woofer designs usually use 8 ohm drivers--but you might be able to put an inductor with the second 8 inch woofer and wire it in series. Technically you could. Glancing at your "audio pile" it indicates you were thinking of a dual 8" woofer speaker with them wired in series for 8 ohms? Uhhh... you could but there are rules for center-to-center distance, comb filtering and so on. Be aware most of those 2 or 2.5 way designs use a very stout tweeter and cross it over really low. A good example of this would be the Cobalt from DIYSG, a very stout tweeter crossing at 1.5 KHz to the 8 inchers. The 2.5 way with the second woofer in series would give your bass around an 8 ohm load, more AVR friendly that way but will not increase bass sensitivity--but does allow more power handling and EQ to get it smooth. Be aware this also makes the box much larger and the game to go along with that.

As far as your demands for 40Hz from small speakers, well... that limits you and demands large boxes. If you can localize a sub below 60Hz, you might have problems with the sub, the calibration and other factors.... need to bone up on sub integration to solve those issues. My system turns the sub on when I turn the system on... no worries there so look into allowing that to be automatic. The only difference in sound for my system if I cross the sub over at 50/60/80 Hz is increased distortion from my mains and the ports on the mains start to become active at around 55Hz which creates phase issues and the measurements become unstable.

So, I would search Google by the part numbers and find other sites and forums that use your drivers. Plenty of forums around the world be it DIY Audio, HT Shack, Parts Express and so on. They will show you what each driver does and give you an idea of the crossover filters required. Read up on passive crossovers, once you understand how they work then you'll do much better with your build. Play around with crossover simulators--plenty of videos on Youtube to explain how to design/build passive crossovers in software. Impulse Audio has a video explaining how to do just that. The .zma files for the Dayton drivers are on Parts Express so very easy to get you started.

What you are doing is true DIY---not AIY (assemble yourself) or "Ikea Audio" or put a kit together. As you have learned, best to figure out what you want, find the drivers that will actually perform that function and start building....as in one or at the most two speakers. Once you get a pair of speakers under your belt, determine if you like them then repeat the build as neccessary until you are done. Never, ever buy a bunch of cool drivers without getting the "beta builds" done first. By the listing, it looks like you are trying to build two or three different types of speakers at once. I had three crates of speakers once, two dozen woofers, 50 three inch mids and 100 dome tweeters---and an unhappy wife. Saved a fortune buying in bulk and it took me three revisions and 17 months but I finally had those line arrays built for the garage. Building a three-way line array with a passive crossover was a "learning experience" you can say--but had to use my crates of speakers up so I got it done

In summation, learn about the drivers you have at other DIY sites an speaker projects using those drivers. See how far they can be pushed and find out if you can use them together. Model what they do in software to give you experience in how to do proper modeling....don't go OCD and demand a certain frequency range in a specific speaker size. Too late for that! You must create the limits before you purchase drivers--not after! At this point, the drivers will determine what you can do so best to find other people's results/measurements to see if those designs will work. It is obvious that you are lost with passive crossovers---they need what they need so forcing the design to fit whatever parts you have is not good idea. You can string parts together if you know what you are doing and do it right--learn what series or parallel does with capacitors, inductors an resistors to get the scoop.

My wife can tell you how much my speakers cost even years later---but she does not view wood, screws, glue, duratex, grll cloth etc. as a speake cost. If you find or build a speaker that requires additional crossover parts---buld the speaker first then your wife will be fine with a few more parts. Seriously, cost over runs are common at the finish line so don't mention it until at the finishing stages. Cost over runs before you start? :) Yeah, that gets you into hot water but there is always finishing up costs at the end so no worries. Crossover parts for a pair of speaker (or three speakers) should not be over 100 bucks--or make sure it won't hit th triple digits!

Good luck with your build... make sure your wife never runs into my wife or we are both dead! ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
A few thoughts,

I would sniff arouund in the Tech Talk forum at Parts Express and see how far you can push your 8 inch woofer and that 28mm dome tweeter. They would know, from an initial look that woofer can easily do 35Hz if the cabinet is the right size and kicks butt to 1,000 Hz. Generally speaking, you can push 8 inch woofers to cross at 2,000 to 2,300 Hz if they are smooth enough or the crossover can notch peaks etc. to the tweeter. Most dome tweeters will struggle below 3,000 Hz which explains why 8 inch two-ways are no very common. Not sure what that 28mm dome will do, might make it down to 2,300Hz with a steep filter to protect it. The very successful designs using that 8 inch woofer tend to be three-ways, they have one of the designs on tech talk.

Generally speaking, most "2.5 ways" or the dual woofer designs usually use 8 ohm drivers--but you might be able to put an inductor with the second 8 inch woofer and wire it in series. Technically you could. Glancing at your "audio pile" it indicates you were thinking of a dual 8" woofer speaker with them wired in series for 8 ohms? Uhhh... you could but there are rules for center-to-center distance, comb filtering and so on. Be aware most of those 2 or 2.5 way designs use a very stout tweeter and cross it over really low. A good example of this would be the Cobalt from DIYSG, a very stout tweeter crossing at 1.5 KHz to the 8 inchers. The 2.5 way with the second woofer in series would give your bass around an 8 ohm load, more AVR friendly that way but will not increase bass sensitivity--but does allow more power handling and EQ to get it smooth. Be aware this also makes the box much larger and the game to go along with that.

As far as your demands for 40Hz from small speakers, well... that limits you and demands large boxes. If you can localize a sub below 60Hz, you might have problems with the sub, the calibration and other factors.... need to bone up on sub integration to solve those issues. My system turns the sub on when I turn the system on... no worries there so look into allowing that to be automatic. The only difference in sound for my system if I cross the sub over at 50/60/80 Hz is increased distortion from my mains and the ports on the mains start to become active at around 55Hz which creates phase issues and the measurements become unstable.

So, I would search Google by the part numbers and find other sites and forums that use your drivers. Plenty of forums around the world be it DIY Audio, HT Shack, Parts Express and so on. They will show you what each driver does and give you an idea of the crossover filters required. Read up on passive crossovers, once you understand how they work then you'll do much better with your build. Play around with crossover simulators--plenty of videos on Youtube to explain how to design/build passive crossovers in software. Impulse Audio has a video explaining how to do just that. The .zma files for the Dayton drivers are on Parts Express so very easy to get you started.

What you are doing is true DIY---not AIY (assemble yourself) or "Ikea Audio" or put a kit together. As you have learned, best to figure out what you want, find the drivers that will actually perform that function and start building....as in one or at the most two speakers. Once you get a pair of speakers under your belt, determine if you like them then repeat the build as neccessary until you are done. Never, ever buy a bunch of cool drivers without getting the "beta builds" done first. By the listing, it looks like you are trying to build two or three different types of speakers at once. I had three crates of speakers once, two dozen woofers, 50 three inch mids and 100 dome tweeters---and an unhappy wife. Saved a fortune buying in bulk and it took me three revisions and 17 months but I finally had those line arrays built for the garage. Building a three-way line array with a passive crossover was a "learning experience" you can say--but had to use my crates of speakers up so I got it done

In summation, learn about the drivers you have at other DIY sites an speaker projects using those drivers. See how far they can be pushed and find out if you can use them together. Model what they do in software to give you experience in how to do proper modeling....don't go OCD and demand a certain frequency range in a specific speaker size. Too late for that! You must create the limits before you purchase drivers--not after! At this point, the drivers will determine what you can do so best to find other people's results/measurements to see if those designs will work. It is obvious that you are lost with passive crossovers---they need what they need so forcing the design to fit whatever parts you have is not good idea. You can string parts together if you know what you are doing and do it right--learn what series or parallel does with capacitors, inductors an resistors to get the scoop.

My wife can tell you how much my speakers cost even years later---but she does not view wood, screws, glue, duratex, grll cloth etc. as a speake cost. If you find or build a speaker that requires additional crossover parts---buld the speaker first then your wife will be fine with a few more parts. Seriously, cost over runs are common at the finish line so don't mention it until at the finishing stages. Cost over runs before you start? :) Yeah, that gets you into hot water but there is always finishing up costs at the end so no worries. Crossover parts for a pair of speaker (or three speakers) should not be over 100 bucks--or make sure it won't hit th triple digits!

Good luck with your build... make sure your wife never runs into my wife or we are both dead! ;)

Thanks I appreciate it. These Dayton woofers do demand large cabs so that sucks. I may go sealed, but trying to figure out the configuration. I made post on PE also- getting some traction. Trying to get so the help I can. The rst28f I do know are very robust and can cross pretty low. Considering a three way right now- but ideas from pe is a dual woofer config, was going to be dual woofers and mids but I'm short on those. Wife said no more drivers, but okay if I need a few xo parts. I graph traced all the drivers except the Dayton's, those I grabbed the frd zma from PA and have been messing around in X-sim.
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. I got so desperate to try something to make me happy I almost gutted the Klipsch for the tweeter/horn lol 🤦‍♂️.
 

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Instead of DATS build an impedance jig, parts are about $15, you can use it in REW. If you use gated and near field measurements you can get a pretty accurate frequency response measuring in center of the room. From there you can start simulating the crossover and see how many of the crossover components you have that you can use.
 

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If it makes you feel any better I have 2 4'x4' pallets stacked 5' tall with mostly unused drivers, and a few completed speakers.
 

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looking at the graph's above... you have placement/integration issues with your subs... changing bed level speakers isn't likely to help that... and even tougher to tune...

that said, build/buy what makes ya happy... not my place to tell someone they don't like something... to each their own, but I prefer accurate... and the science says that in small rooms, that equals placement, multiples, and integration work that can be complicated and time consuming...

unless you have a rectangular enclosed space, lol... in which case, put four subs in the midpoints of each wall or the 4 corners and you are mostly done... :)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
looking at the graph's above... you have placement/integration issues with your subs... changing bed level speakers isn't likely to help that... and even tougher to tune...

that said, build/buy what makes ya happy... not my place to tell someone they don't like something... to each their own, but I prefer accurate... and the science says that in small rooms, that equals placement, multiples, and integration work that can be complicated and time consuming...

unless you have a rectangular enclosed space, lol... in which case, put four subs in the midpoints of each wall or the 4 corners and you are mostly done... :)
Subs are not a issue.
The graphs were raw with room issues. Subs actually integrate nicely. This is MLP room had bad spot 100ish but also family room lots of stuff in the way.
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Yeah.... the response at 29hz, and then 58, and 65, and 87 are all room/speaker interactions. Moving the subs and integra them to each other better will improve things.. seems like from your other graph that your mains are smoothing the response at the MLP, but as you see, your mains can’t generate enough output. All response covered by subs is dominated by the room unless you are in a movie theater size space.

build big speakers and be happy... im cool with that. but it doesn’t fix the fact that your multiple subs aren’t optimized. Maybe that raw response is the best it gets due to placement and DSP constraints. Adjusting levels and phase of each using MSO or REW or manually with a miniDSP before integrating will give the best results and take a lot of load off the mains... though that only works if all your speakers are set to small and bass managed... if not, I’d start there figuring this out.

though I have a feeling you kinda want some beast speakers regardless which is cool. Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Yeah.... the response at 29hz, and then 58, and 65, and 87 are all room/speaker interactions. Moving the subs and integra them to each other better will improve things.. seems like from your other graph that your mains are smoothing the response at the MLP, but as you see, your mains can’t generate enough output. All response covered by subs is dominated by the room unless you are in a movie theater size space.

build big speakers and be happy... im cool with that. but it doesn’t fix the fact that your multiple subs aren’t optimized. Maybe that raw response is the best it gets due to placement and DSP constraints. Adjusting levels and phase of each using MSO or REW or manually with a miniDSP before integrating will give the best results and take a lot of load off the mains... though that only works if all your speakers are set to small and bass managed... if not, I’d start there figuring this out.

though I have a feeling you kinda want some beast speakers regardless which is cool. Good luck!
I think your not understanding what's going on here. There is NO mains measured, no speakers. Those were subs and this thread has nothing to do with subs. My subs are aligned the best they can be and are fine ignore those graphs.

This thread is about my speakers and speakers only. If you would have reD you would understand I hate my speakers I have a pile of parts and want to make a better speaker thats it. No integration issues no placement issues no summation issues this is just a DIY speaker thread . Thats my subs at MLP with a really sissy house curve- I have no sub issue.
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Why is this graph different than the one you first posted? I am definitely confused. Your original post read to me like you were unhappy with the bass of your mains, hence using parts to get deep extension. I guess I misunderstood? You said you wanted deep extension because you could localize, but didn’t specify what crossover value that occurred. Then you posted a graph in another thread that I thought was your sub response.. perhaps that was with mains, or not, or pre calibration.
I’ll shut up now and let everyone get back to helping you build speakers... I still don’t know the goal of that other than to use parts you already have?

Usually you’d start with the goal statement, then look for complementing designs (2 way, 2.5 way, MTM, TMM, etc.) and then select parts to fit those goals....

I think you’re better off trying to sell those parts on the forums or swap meet and get some Titan kits.... it’s designed to do what you want...
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Why is this graph different than the one you first posted? I am definitely confused. Your original post read to me like you were unhappy with the bass of your mains, hence using parts to get deep extension. I guess I misunderstood? You said you wanted deep extension because you could localize, but didn’t specify what crossover value that occurred. Then you posted a graph in another thread that I thought was your sub response.. perhaps that was with mains, or not, or pre calibration.
I’ll shut up now and let everyone get back to helping you build speakers... I still don’t know the goal of that other than to use parts you already have?

Usually you’d start with the goal statement, then look for complementing designs (2 way, 2.5 way, MTM, TMM, etc.) and then select parts to fit those goals....

I think you’re better off trying to sell those parts on the forums or swap meet and get some Titan kits.... it’s designed to do what you want...
Yup only goal is a DIY speaker with all parts I have to hold me over. I don't have room or funds for titans lol be nice but would take a couple years to save having to support a wife and four kids. There may have been a graph posted by someone that has nothing to do with this thread. I do have a goal. A better bed layer speaker I can also use for 2channel listening because I hate having to have subs on for music. I wanted to build something with as close to a F3 of 40hz as possible. Seeing as my Kali LP-6 have a F3 of 47hz from small speaker and 6.5 it shouldn't be that difficult to achieve. I want that F3 because I can't stand crossing speakers like average Joe at 80hz, sounds like absolute garbage to us. We have plenty of LFE, to much it feels like. We're actually going to be down sizing if I can unload all the Kali. Just ignore all the graphs expect the xsim- stuff ;) we're unhappy with all our bed layer speakers.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Made two testing baffles for two of the configurations. I can just use their FRD- if I want to alter it. I already have two testing boxs, they're not the full cab size but ill stack them to make one close and use the top of measuring. Ill just screw the baffles on. Hoping today ill be able to build the test cab for dual woofers, and then i can stack the test box for mid section on top of that. They'll be sealed anyway, hoping doing it this way i can move the woofer section off the floor for measurements.

Also to cheap to buy a mic stand so slapped one together from 2x2. Is it perfect nah its ugly but level and 4"H so i can get mic off the ground. Test box for dual 8s will be about 2cuft not going all out on size. Tuning it to 30HZ to keep xmax in check better it should still be F3 40/41hz, May just add the mid section to the test box for woofers and just swap out mid section baffles.

Also they're all ugly because A) they're for testing and i dont care. B) used all scrap Plywood lol not spending money on materiel for testing.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Finally got around to measuring. Went to measure voltage from AVR to set to 2.83 and for some reason it fried all amp boards. Now AVR is a processor lovely
 
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