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So, looking at some comparison frequency charts found here
http://www.data-bass.com/home

Seems like those DIY subs that one can have for under $900 would blow away some of the top sellers from Rythmik and SVS .... true?

So if I was starting out fresh ... should I have gone for Rythmik F12 at $900 or could I have had much bet6ter at $800 and below with a DIY sub ?

thanks
 

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when comparing diy subs at data-bass take note Josh Ricci uses a Power Soft K10 amplifier that costs more then most peoples entire systems. that is good for another 4-5db above 30hz. a good example is to compare the active and passive models of subs like the chase ss18 and vs18.


DIY presents a much value but I would not use the term "blow ID subs" away.
 

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So, looking at some comparison frequency charts found here
http://www.data-bass.com/home

Seems like those DIY subs that one can have for under $900 would blow away some of the top sellers from Rythmik and SVS .... true?

So if I was starting out fresh ... should I have gone for Rythmik F12 at $900 or could I have had much bet6ter at $800 and below with a DIY sub ?

thanks
From a pure performance standpoint, there is no way to beat DIY for bang for the buck. However, here is what you "give up" when going DIY, imo:

-Professional build quality and finish. It is unlikely that your home-made finish will be as good as that from a professional cabinet maker that does that for a living. Unless you farm out the finishing, in which case you have lost some of the "cheap factor" of DIY.

-You can get boatloads of cheap power by using pro amps like the Behringer Inuke series. The sacrifice is fan noise/and or the need for a fan mod to make the fans quieter, or remotely locating the amp. Then you have the issue of no auto on/off feature. But there are work arounds.

-Don't discount professionally designed subs with built in limiters that will protect the driver....that's one of the reasons you get those nice 5 year warranties.

-Consider resale....you can always probably get at least 2/3 of your money back if you choose to upgrade or something with ID subs. At least 1/2 even if you had them a long time.

Now, on to the "bang for the buck":

Take a look at the SI-18HT on data bass. Compare it to the SB-12NSD, SB13-Ultra, XS15se, PS15, Funk18, Velodyne18. At the very best, the $3400 Funk matches it for output...it pretty much thumps the rest pretty handily. Cost? You could probably build one for $6-$700 even using a pre-made flat pack. This is with a $174 shipped driver. Toss in a $500 driver for 50% more output.
 

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From a pure performance standpoint, there is no way to beat DIY for bang for the buck. However, here is what you "give up" when going DIY, imo:

-Professional build quality and finish. It is unlikely that your home-made finish will be as good as that from a professional cabinet maker that does that for a living. Unless you farm out the finishing, in which case you have lost some of the "cheap factor" of DIY.

-You can get boatloads of cheap power by using pro amps like the Behringer Inuke series. The sacrifice is fan noise/and or the need for a fan mod to make the fans quieter, or remotely locating the amp. Then you have the issue of no auto on/off feature. But there are work arounds.

-Don't discount professionally designed subs with built in limiters that will protect the driver....that's one of the reasons you get those nice 5 year warranties.

-Consider resale....you can always probably get at least 2/3 of your money back if you choose to upgrade or something with ID subs. At least 1/2 even if you had them a long time.

Now, on to the "bang for the buck":

Take a look at the SI-18HT on data bass. Compare it to the SB-12NSD, SB13-Ultra, XS15se, PS15, Funk18, Velodyne18. At the very best, the $3400 Funk matches it for output...it pretty much thumps the rest pretty handily. Cost? You could probably build one for $6-$700 even using a pre-made flat pack.
Yea but the S1-18 powered by a Inuke puts out nowhere near the output that is does with the K-10. so it's not a apples to apples comparison. Sure you can spend 8k on a powersoft amp to get those numbers but that pretty much removes the value aspect diy offers. cheap power is just that cheap...the amp can not sustain it's rated numbers for any length of time. Jeff Permanian had a great post about it.
 

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Yea but the S1-18 powered by a Inuke puts out nowhere near the output that is does with the K-10. so it's not a apples to apples comparison. Sure you can spend 8k on a powersoft amp to get those numbers but that pretty much removes the value aspect diy offers. cheap power is just that cheap...the amp can not sustain it's rated numbers for any length of time. Jeff Permanian had a great post about it.
You are correct about this to an extent....my inuke6000dsp has no where near the power of the K10....but it has plenty to easily mimic, for example, the 115dB sweep that you see on DB. It has more than enough power to get everything that the K10 got out of that driver below 40 Hz. In the upper bass, I probably can't get the last few dB's' out of that driver that the K10 was able to get.
 
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Remember that with DIY you are trading your time for saving money. You're going to pay for it one way or the other--you'll spend your time and / or your money.

Moreover, if you don't have a setup for doing construction or the tools, you may spend a good bit on those as well.
 

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Also, many people forget that they're also trading small size for better performance with DIY. It is easy to get big performance when you can have a big box, *much* bigger than the ID subs. Try making a small sub as good as the same sized ID subs, and you'll find yourself maybe even losing money going DIY.
 

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Also, many people forget that they're also trading small size for better performance with DIY. It is easy to get big performance when you can have a big box, *much* bigger than the ID subs. Try making a small sub as good as the same sized ID subs, and you'll find yourself maybe even losing money going DIY.


Yup....I wonder what PSA, Svs, Rythmik, or Hsu could build if the sky was the limit....at the end of the day how feasible are these DIY designs to us mortals when constraints & aesthetics play a major role.
 
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Remember that with DIY you are trading your time for saving money. You're going to pay for it one way or the other--you'll spend your time and / or your money.

Moreover, if you don't have a setup for doing construction or the tools, you may spend a good bit on those as well.
I'll leave sub construction up to the people who have done it hundreds if not thousands of times. Saving a few hundred dollars for a weekend of frustration and wife nagging isn't worth it to me. For those of you who enjoy these kind of projects, more power to you.
 

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Yea but the S1-18 powered by a Inuke puts out nowhere near the output that is does with the K-10. so it's not a apples to apples comparison. Sure you can spend 8k on a powersoft amp to get those numbers but that pretty much removes the value aspect diy offers. cheap power is just that cheap...the amp can not sustain it's rated numbers for any length of time. Jeff Permanian had a great post about it.
You forget one minor aspect...

If the driver can't handle the power of the K10, then that power is mute. For a lot of the cheaper drivers (the HT18 or the Dayton HO18), an iNuke can easily drive it to its max point down low. The LMS5400, HST18, and UXL are a different story, but there you are talking about $500+ drivers. If you're buying a $500 driver, you are probably willing to buy an amp that can power it.

I put a total of $650 into my ultimax 18". There isn't a single ID subwoofer near that price that would contend with it. Not one. It utterly destroys any and all ID subs in that price bracket. That isn't a diss to the ID companies. They have to make their money and pay their employees, so obviously they can't try and compete with DIY.

Yes, ID has its perks. But if you have the means to build yourself, it is still the best course of action. ;)
 

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I couldn't be bothered trying to build a box out of sheet materials, even though I'm generally pretty good at DIY. However, I was put on to a guy on eBay (UK) who will build the box(es) for a very reasonable amount. So instead I went a sort of 'self assembly' route for mine, so perhaps there are similar suppliers in the USA that might help those in a similar situation to me?

I did debate whether to go DIY for a long time however as the resale side was a sticking point for me. In the end I concluded that for speakers and subs I tend not to change them for a very long time (can't say the same for amps and projectors, but hey...).

Therefore I figured that if I built some really good subs then they would keep me from wanting/needing to upgrade for a very long time anyway. Once I'd put them together I then decided to do a little more cosmetic work on the main one that is on show, so I recycled some oak from an old AV unit, so I ended up with something quite custom built. It took me two afternoons over a weekend to do the 'cladding' part.

So for me it's a combination of getting better 'bang for buck' and something that really does blend into my room. However, I fully understand those who might not want to spend the time and effort with DIY/assemble it yourself, especially those serial upgraders who might need to sell on.

This is one of my pair (the second is less on show, so I've only put an oak top on it).

(Clue; it's the table with the lamp on it next to the guitar. ;)).
 

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You forget one minor aspect...

If the driver can't handle the power of the K10, then that power is mute. For a lot of the cheaper drivers (the HT18 or the Dayton HO18), an iNuke can easily drive it to its max point down low. The LMS5400, HST18, and UXL are a different story, but there you are talking about $500+ drivers. If you're buying a $500 driver, you are probably willing to buy an amp that can power it.

I put a total of $650 into my ultimax 18". There isn't a single ID subwoofer near that price that would contend with it. Not one. It utterly destroys any and all ID subs in that price bracket. That isn't a diss to the ID companies. They have to make their money and pay their employees, so obviously they can't try and compete with DIY.

Yes, ID has its perks. But if you have the means to build yourself, it is still the best course of action. ;)
For one the example I used was a driver that cost well below 500.00. The eminence driver Chase used in the SS and VS18.1 is far from high dollar and it picked up 4-10db over the active model with the k10 behind it. Many drivers out there can handle power way above there rating in short bursts. That is why I said that it is not apples to apples to compare cea2010 max burst data between ID subs and the DIY drivers on data bass. Even Ricci has said the same thing... :)
 

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I'll leave sub construction up to the people who have done it hundreds if not thousands of times. Saving a few hundred dollars for a weekend of frustration and wife nagging isn't worth it to me. For those of you who enjoy these kind of projects, more power to you.
There's something that's worth wife nagging? What would that be?
 

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Seems like those DIY subs that one can have for under $900 would blow away some of the top sellers from Rythmik and SVS .... true?
True. To parody an old adage, those who can (build their own speakers), do; those who can't, buy them.
 

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All of the best theater rooms have some measure of local assembly and construction, whether DIY or outsourced. Lights, risers, columns, soffits, screen walls, etc.

Those owners are in the best position for DIY subs, because they can hide amp wires, hide the subs behind walls, will paint and stain, already have some tools and some experience and will to DIY. Plus if you can hide the sub, the aesthetics are moot.

To get subs to blend or match other furnishings in non-dedicated rooms takes a higher level of skill, requiring cabinetry finishing skills of joinery, painting/staining, etc. I fall short here and would still buy ID subs for the living and bedrooms, even though I have AIY four speakers and a sub so far.
 

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Flatpacks for the martys just started up again if you don't want to DIY, just AIY.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/1982873-martysub-flatpacks-back.html

A Marty is a 18" ported sub tuned to 17-22hz depending on what flavor you choose.
2x full marty flatpacks $700 Or cut the wood yourself for ~$150. Shipping kills the extreme value.
2x Dayton 460ho $500
1x inuke 6000DSP $350

$1550 AIY
$1000 DIY
...Is a very popular option in the DIY section.

1 of these subs will put most ID HT subs to shame regardless of the price, and you can build 2 for a grand.

People keep talking about the K10, The only place where that amp really skews the comparison is at power limited frequencies, >40hz or so. Also, most of the aftermarket sub tests at databass are with 18" subs in a tiny 4cuft sealed test box. That makes them so inefficient that you have to throw thousands of watts at them to get them to xmax. Making a box bigger is effectively the same as adding more power.


The DIY sub I just built WILL blow away nearly any ID design. With the exception of some of the ridiculous Danley subs, but that's more like concert/pro sound reinforcement.

I think the SVS SB13 ultra is a well regarded sub for it's price range, $1600.
Since aesthetics come a far 2nd to performance for me, I was able to build this sub for the same price. Including 16 subs, 2 amps, 4 sheets of mdf, screws, glue, wire, etc. I may put a coat of paint on it at some point, probably not.

With 16 voice coils and only 2500W RMS, I don't have to worry about cooking the drivers or amp. I can easily run sine waves at 130+db for an hour, or any kind of real content at ear bleed levels (including Bassnectar) basically forever without any worries of breaking something. Other than myself or my house. :eek:

If you want sealed, this is close to the most bass per $ you can get. The full build is in my signature.

 

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So, looking at some comparison frequency charts found here
http://www.data-bass.com/home

Seems like those DIY subs that one can have for under $900 would blow away some of the top sellers from Rythmik and SVS .... true?

So if I was starting out fresh ... should I have gone for Rythmik F12 at $900 or could I have had much bet6ter at $800 and below with a DIY sub ?

thanks
It comes down to what your after and how it relates to your budget. Also some go DIY simply because they enjoy the build process, some go DIY or AIY because it allows them to meet their needs for less money out of pocket.
 

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For one the example I used was a driver that cost well below 500.00. The eminence driver Chase used in the SS and VS18.1 is far from high dollar and it picked up 4-10db over the active model with the k10 behind it. Many drivers out there can handle power way above there rating in short bursts. That is why I said that it is not apples to apples to compare cea2010 max burst data between ID subs and the DIY drivers on data bass. Even Ricci has said the same thing... :)
That's CEA. Also, you're talking about a driver that was massively underpowered using the included amp that was tested.

That sub saw a gain at 20hz, and everything else in the excursion limited area was pretty much the same. So, in all actuality, that just goes right along with what I just said. No? (the 20hz part puzzles me on this driver test, weird that 20hz got a nice gain and everything else in the excursion/thd limited zone stayed identical)

There's more to testing than CEA, what matters is long term output numbers. I actually kind of wish Josh would start adding "RMS" testing, where he runs the tests using the rated voltage and puts the numbers up. :D

My point still stands though... for the $650 I spent, what ID company could've came anywhere close to the performance I got? Don't get me wrong, I still advise ID to anyone who isn't willing to build their own, but if they are willing to it's a no brainer.
 

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Flatpacks for the martys just started up again if you don't want to DIY, just AIY.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/1982873-martysub-flatpacks-back.html

A Marty is a 18" ported sub tuned to 17-22hz depending on what flavor you choose.
2x full marty flatpacks $700 Or cut the wood yourself for ~$150. Shipping kills the extreme value.
2x Dayton 460ho $500
1x inuke 6000DSP $350

$1550 AIY
$1000 DIY
...Is a very popular option in the DIY section.

1 of these subs will put most ID HT subs to shame regardless of the price, and you can build 2 for a grand.

People keep talking about the K10, The only place where that amp really skews the comparison is at power limited frequencies, >40hz or so. Also, most of the aftermarket sub tests at databass are with 18" subs in a tiny 4cuft sealed test box. That makes them so inefficient that you have to throw thousands of watts at them to get them to xmax. Making a box bigger is effectively the same as adding more power.


The DIY sub I just built WILL blow away nearly any ID design. With the exception of some of the ridiculous Danley subs, but that's more like concert/pro sound reinforcement.

I think the SVS SB13 ultra is a well regarded sub for it's price range, $1600.
Since aesthetics come a far 2nd to performance for me, I was able to build this sub for the same price. Including 16 subs, 2 amps, 4 sheets of mdf, screws, glue, wire, etc. I may put a coat of paint on it at some point, probably not.

With 16 voice coils and only 2500W RMS, I don't have to worry about cooking the drivers or amp. I can easily run sine waves at 130+db for an hour, or any kind of real content at ear bleed levels (including Bassnectar) basically forever without any worries of breaking something. Other than myself or my house. :eek:

If you want sealed, this is close to the most bass per $ you can get. The full build is in my signature.

Can you make me a flatpack for that? :)
 
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