[Timbelmont]

Well, here we go again. I was all set to buy an Infocus 7200 (if the reviews were good) but now I see this forum beseiged with messages regarding eyestrain, headaches, rainbows, etc. I'm thinking, if DLP technology is this troubling, why are most of the high-end home theater projectors from the major players DLP? Are most of these complaints from "sensitive" people, or is this a consensus?

I may wait for the 3-chip JVC SX21 to be released, if the noise and heat factors are better than former D-ILA machines. It looks terrific. . .


TA

 

[Pultzar]

My friend has an LT150 (now he uses a DILA) and just about everybody could notice some sort of headache, rainbow, eye strain, etc when watching movies on his projector. You could still watch a movie, but there was definitely an unnatural sensation about it. I haven't watched late model DLPs, so I can't comment on them.


The DILA is very nice to watch. The only downside to it are the contrast and black levels aren't as good as DLP. Everything else seems better in my opinion.

 

[Mark Hunter]

Quote:

why are most of the high-end home theater projectors from the major players DLP?

This "business" side of the business has little to do with image quality considerations. Corporations are not in business to make the least straining picture...they are in business to make money.


One chip, a spinning color wheel and simple optics are much less expensive than three chips, dichroic mirrors and complex engineered optics.


There are several under $2K single-chip DLP projectors available, but I have never seen (nor expect to see) an under $2K LCOS projector any time soon.


The consumer gets to vote with their dollars...and guess where the votes are being cast?

 

[craige17]

Great question. As the guy who started the "eye fatique" (sic) thread I'm interested to hear the answer. From what I gather you pay more for D-ILA but can get a better picture, though they are not as user friendly.


In the meantime, if I were you, I would try to see a DLP first. Apparently more people than not have no problems with them, so I would not discount this just yet. Once I started going to various dealers and checking them out personally, I could tell right away.


c

 

[Daniel Hutnicki]

Rainbows and eye fatique is not unverisal with everyone. If you really want a DLP, I would test one out for a while and see how it affects you. If it bothers you, then go with the Dila, if it doesnt then you need to decide which you like the most

 

[Art Lloyd]

The problem with Daniel Hutnicki's well-intended suggestion is that one can't run around checking everyone who might be a guest in one's HT. I chose DILA but it seems as if there are great things being done with LCD...

Art

 

[Burnt]

I'm sure those who get headaches and eyestrain have an issue, but it seems odd to me. Normal film in movies flickers at 24fps which bothers me on light scenes, and film judder on pan drives me nuts, but I have no discomfort with DLP.


Human persistence of vision is far, far slower than the oscillation of the mirrors. Although it could be a harmonic bothering people, movie theaters should bother them far worse.

 

[otzdig]

Sometimes an improper setup can yield eye strain and headaches.


I have the LT150 and I haven't had a guest yet complain of eyestrain or headaches. The worst complaint I've gotten is that the person is jealous.

People who suffer eyestrain and headaches with DLP are in the absolute minority by a wide margin.


Both formats have strength and weaknesses, but clearly DLP is superior


Mike

 

[mintakaX]

otzdig--I think you are right about us "eyestrainers" being in the minority. Dealers I've talked to have never heard of people getting headaches--I took my soon to watch a Seleco 300+ and he was totally unaffected. He thinks my eyestrain is psycosomatic due to the power of suggestion,hehehe.


Dan

 

[the bomber]

There are several similar posts right now. I'm surprised by the intelligent people who make braod generalizations on such small sample sizes. There are people who don't get headaches or see rainbows with DLP. Then again there are those who do. In my world with my limited sample size, I haven't had anyone complain. I wouldn't make any generalizations based on that small of a sample (50 people). It could be they did and were being polite. With my immediate family and friends, no one is complaining because I quiz them. The only problem I have is occaisional temporal dithering. It bothers me momentarily but not as much as screendoor, poor black level, low light output, noise and expense of other technologies. You kinda have to decide this one on your own as each technology clearly cannot suit everyone since they all have downsides.


Harlan

 

[Burnt]

Quote:

Originally posted by mintakaX He thinks my eyestrain is psycosomatic due to the power of suggestion,hehehe.

Not to take away from your symptoms but, dang you've got a smart kid there...

 

[Daniel Hutnicki]

Art


I agree with you. I didnt mean that anyone who might see your projector should be taken into consideration. While it would be great for your projector to universally not cause eye strain or rainbows, in the end the only person who really needs to be happy is the buyer and possibly his spouse.


So again my point was and is, if you are the buyer and a DLP bothers you, go with another technology. If it doesnt bother you and you like the picture quality, go for it. Its neither well intentioned nor a generalization. Buy wants good for you.

 

[paulh]

Hi all,


Quote Otzdig " Both formats have strength and weaknesses, but clearly DLP is superior"


Otzdig! have you seen a properly set up D-ILA. Apart form the contrast, which can be tweaked, My G15 wipes the floor with any DLP I have seen and JVC have promised better contrast/higher resolution projectors to come.


The pixel fill rate is what sold me the D-ILA as I come from a CRT back ground,any hint of screen door will just kill the film like quality that CRTs bring.


Iv'e not seen a DLP which is screen door free yet( SIM300 last demoed )


Mind due I do like my screens large.


Cheers


Paulh.

 

[Tryg]

Quote:

Originally posted by otzdig Both formats have strength and weaknesses, but clearly DLP is superior Mike

Yes Mike you are so correct. Some people that own DLPs but have never seen a D-ILA often make claims of there superiority. I'd say this is a weakness. Very Different from D-ILA owners who have usually viewed many DLPs. They are likely very happy with their D-ILAs strengths.


Another interesting thing I've noticed is that in the 2 years I've been on this forum I've seen dozens of people go from DLP to LCOS products but not the other way around. I'm thinking these people must have used some thought when the made the decision to "upgrade".


BTW hows those rainbows on the LT150?

 

[neutrino]

Why haven't D-ILA or LCD manufacturers commisioned a scientific study to find out just what percentage of the population is afflicted by DLP rainbows or other unpleasant symptoms (eyestrain, headaches)? I would think it would be decidedly in their interests to have solid data and a hard number to trumpet from the rooftops -


"One in eight of your closest friends and family will suffer from rainbows, eyestrain, or headaches when watching a DLP projector. Do you want to take that chance?


The Sony HS-10. High definition. Low price. No rainbows."

 

[Thomas Marshall]

I totally agree with Otzdig. IMO the DLP issues discussed on this forum regarding eye fatigue, headaches and rainbows are limited to a small minority of people who absolutely suffer from these issues.


If it helps, I have been using the Infocus LS110 for many months having watched 3 and 4 movies back to back on several occasions, and no one in my family, including myself, has ever noticed any of the above symptoms. The same is true for the many guests who have joined us in the past 4-5 months.


I have also viewed the Sharp 9000, Dwin TV1 and the Runco VX1000 (watched complete movies on each unit) and didn't have a problem with any of these PJ's either. This was my personal experience.


IMO this forum tends to focus on the negative side of things more often than not, and for good reasons, as many people here are attempting to make informed decisions regarding purchasing, selling and supporting very expensive products. When making these decisions it's necessary to explore the down side of each product. IMO some of this negativity should be taken with a grain of salt.


I personally believe DLP is an excellent technology and would be fine for the majority of people.


However, in the end of the day, each person needs to sample the technology and make up their own mind based on their own physical requirements and personal preference/experience.


On the up side, it's great that we have several options in the digital world to choose from. Just think if we were stuck with CRT as the only option (I couldn't resist).


Good luck

 

[Pultzar]

Quote:

Originally posted by Burnt I'm sure those who get headaches and eyestrain have an issue, but it seems odd to me. Normal film in movies flickers at 24fps which bothers me on light scenes, and film judder on pan drives me nuts, but I have no discomfort with DLP. Human persistence of vision is far, far slower than the oscillation of the mirrors. Although it could be a harmonic bothering people, movie theaters should bother them far worse.

I don't think that it is the flicking of the mirrors themselves. I think it is the fact that all 3 colors are not present at the same time. As the time delta between colors gets smaller (faster wheel speeds with more segments) then I think that the negative effects will go down.

 

[Pultzar]

Quote:

Originally posted by otzdig People who suffer eyestrain and headaches with DLP are in the absolute minority by a wide margin.

Do you have data which backs up this claim?


At the HP shootout in Seattle awhile ago, it seemed like the majority of the people there were bugged by rainbow/DLP effects. The HP people did not know what we were talking about. Once we showed them how to see a rainbow, they had a hard time not seeing it.

Quote:

Both formats have strength and weaknesses, but clearly DLP is superior

Right now, DLP is superior as to contrast ratio, perfect convergence, and projector size.


DILA is superior in color, screendoor, resolution, image smoothness (no dithering), and lack of color separation artifacts (rainbow).


I don't own either technology, but these have been my observations.

 

[otzdig]

Sweet Lord, I knew I'd get blow back for that one.


I was hoping the would ensure you knew I was totally, TOTALLY kidding.


See, the whole joke centers around establishing that both formats have strengths and weaknesses. Also, it was established in earlier posts that the superiority of one format over another is almost purely subjective. For me to acknowledge that, and then almost hypocritically support one technology, would be funny; or so I thought.


Now that I had to explain the joke all the humor has been sucked out of it, thanks.


As for sample size for drawing conclusions of headache/non-headache distributions, I'd say that hundreds or thousands are enough. I acknowledge that for some people it is a real problem, though that number is almost statistically insignificant when you're dealing with a major selling market.


To stay competitive, however, ANY drawbacks to your technology should be addressed, and I think TI is going in the right direction with the implementation of their new color wheel. Yes, I know ideally it would be great for a cost effective three chip solution, both to avoid any rainbow effects, and to have a more comprehensive competition with the very good D-ILA technology. This is not an ideal world, though, so sometimes we'll just have to be content with baby steps.


Mike

 

[Pultzar]

Quote:

Originally posted by mintakaX otzdig--I think you are right about us "eyestrainers" being in the minority. Dealers I've talked to have never heard of people getting headaches--I took my soon to watch a Seleco 300+ and he was totally unaffected. He thinks my eyestrain is psycosomatic due to the power of suggestion,hehehe.

Although I don't know yours, I wonder about some dealers. When the 2X wheels first came out, a local dealer told me it was *impossible* to see rainbow on the unit. I literally saw it within the first 10 seconds of watching the demo. It wasn't as bad as earlier generations, but it was still obvious.