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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,



I previously asked on the Klipsch thread seeing as how my setup is all Klipsch, but I wanted to get a second opinion on if adding a second sub to my setup would really make a huge difference and provide a better cinematic experience. I use my TV/Sound system for 90% movies and around 10% TV shows (including netflix / amazon / comcast etc..).

Current Setup is as follows:

Center Speaker : Klipsch RC-62 II
Fronts : Klipsch R-625FA
Side Surrounds : Klipsch RP-502S
Rear Surrounds : Klipsch R-51M
Subwoofer : Klipsch R-120SW
AV Receiver: Pioneer Elite VSX-LX503


The room in question is about 25 Ft x 14 Ft

Budget wise : Around 700, and if it would be extremely worth it (providing a more immersive experience) I'd be willing to go up to 800 or so.

With all of that in mind, If I do end up adding another sub, would it need to be matched to my current sub?


Thank you in advance!
 

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If you don't feel that your current one-sub setup is lacking, you don't need a second sub. If you do feel it is lacking, add a second one. Ideally you want two of the same sub, neither of which needs to match your speakers. Given the size of your room, I'd consider getting rid of your current sub, upgrading to something significantly more powerful (like, say, an HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP) and doubling up on that when additional funds become available.
 

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Well, you would probably replace your current sub. At that price point your looking at HSU. Go 15" and don't look back. The HSU will make your Klipsch look like a toy.
VTF-3 MK5 HP



And no, don't use them both together. Not worth it most likely.
 

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If you don't feel that your current one-sub setup is lacking, you don't need a second sub. If you do feel it is lacking, add a second one. Ideally you want two of the same sub, neither of which needs to match your speakers. Given the size of your room, I'd consider getting rid of your current sub, upgrading to something significantly more powerful (like, say, an HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP) and doubling up on that when additional funds become available.



I was typing before you got in, but you hit "post" first! LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank you all for the quick responses. I just looked up the HSU sub and all the videos/reviews seem to praise it over SVS and other subs in the same price range and below. Seeing as the HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP has a huge power increase over my current sub, does that somehow lessen the strain on the woofers on my fronts? I am not exactly sure how that works so just wondering if it directs most or all of the bass to the sub.

Also, in regards to the "my current sub lacking" well, to be honest I am not sure as I dont have anything to compare it to other than the sub from my previous onkyo home theater which... well the klipsch basically wrecks it in movies/sound tests such as the Dolby Atmos demo (with the lightning) which made my previous onkyo sub sound distorted. And the other note is that I have not tried going past the -9 sound level on my receiver, i try to keep within the -10 to -17 volume level as I am afraid if i go above that and into the positives, it might damage my speakers... Any thoughts about that?
 

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Thank you all for the quick responses. I just looked up the HSU sub and all the videos/reviews seem to praise it over SVS and other subs in the same price range and below. Seeing as the HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP has a huge power increase over my current sub, does that somehow lessen the strain on the woofers on my fronts? I am not exactly sure how that works so just wondering if it directs most or all of the bass to the sub.

Also, in regards to the "my current sub lacking" well, to be honest I am not sure as I dont have anything to compare it to other than the sub from my previous onkyo home theater which... well the klipsch basically wrecks it in movies/sound tests such as the Dolby Atmos demo (with the lightning) which made my previous onkyo sub sound distorted. And the other note is that I have not tried going past the -9 sound level on my receiver, i try to keep within the -10 to -17 volume level as I am afraid if i go above that and into the positives, it might damage my speakers... Any thoughts about that?
The subwoofer (Hsu or Klipsch or whatever) is "active," not passive, meaning it has its own amplifier and gets its juice directly from a wall outlet. As such, it doesn't require any power from your AVR, which your fronts do. So assuming a decent crossover (say the standard 80 Hz), you're relieving your fronts of ULF duty and thereby relieving the AVR of the amount of juice it is sending there. So yes, in an indirect way, any subwoofer will lessen the strain on your L/R woofers.

The power issue (RMS wattage) can be deceiving. It is recommended to look at output in dBs. Having the same Klipsch R120SW, I know it's 200 watts (400 peak) and capable of achieving 116 dB, but with an F3 of only 29 Hz. The Hsu uses more power (600/2000 watts), but it does so to enable its F3 of 17 Hz (1 port open), and that's what's important. I don't remember its max SPL in dB, but suffice it to say, it will destroy the Klipsch on all levels. It's a bona fide beast of a sub, and levels beyond the Best Buy level stuff like the Klipsch.

As far as current output, I am with you there! The R120SW is certainly NO SLOUCH when it comes to BOOM. For HT purposes, a single 120 in my 2300 cubic feet (open to another 2600 cubic feet in the kitchen!) shakes pictures and items on shelves, and that's with the gain set at ~1/3 and the AVR trim set at -8 dB! It's not a bad sub, especially on sale! But it can't compete with the low-tuned Hsu. You'll definitely benefit from that upgrade. I recommend starting with a single Hsu and buying a second once you've tried it out. I doubt you'll need the extra output (unless you're a bona fide AVS bass-hound), but the biggest benefit of dual subs is evening out the response between listening positions (assuming you're willing to invest in REW/UMIK-1).

One final note: the 120SW is fine for HT, I suppose, but it is boomy for music, lacking tightness. This also has an effect on HT, of course, but it's not as noticeable.
 

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The room in question is about 25 Ft x 14 Ft



Budget wise : Around 700, and if it would be extremely worth it (providing a more immersive experience) I'd be willing to go up to 800 or so.
That's a huge room. My living room is half your size and I currently have a Power Sound Audio TV1812 and will be adding a 2nd one later to get rid of some nasty nulls I have ( I have a horrible room)

With your budget I would strongly suggest a HSU VTF15H-MK2 and add 2nd one later when your budget permits.

Or if you can, wait and save more $$ and stretch your budget for a Rythmik FV15HP and add 2nd one later.


You can always turn down a big sub, you can't turn up a small one.
 

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That's a huge room. My living room is half your size and I currently have a Power Sound Audio TV1812 and will be adding a 2nd one later to get rid of some nasty nulls I have ( I have a horrible room)

With your budget I would strongly suggest a HSU VTF15H-MK2 and add 2nd one later when your budget permits.

Or if you can, wait and save more $$ and stretch your budget for a Rythmik FV15HP and add 2nd one later.


You can always turn down a big sub, you can't turn up a small one.
Did I mention AVS bass-hounds in my previous post? haha :D Here is one I know fairly well!

AVS guidance: if your current single sub is enough to destroy your room, upgrade to something twice as powerful and get at least two of them. haha Just messing with you, @rhelliot2;!

I'm surprised no one has recommended the JTR 4000ULF or triple Rythmik FV25HPs yet! :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The subwoofer (Hsu or Klipsch or whatever) is "active," not passive, meaning it has its own amplifier and gets its juice directly from a wall outlet. As such, it doesn't require any power from your AVR, which your fronts do. So assuming a decent crossover (say the standard 80 Hz), you're relieving your fronts of ULF duty and thereby relieving the AVR of the amount of juice it is sending there. So yes, in an indirect way, any subwoofer will lessen the strain on your L/R woofers.

The power issue (RMS wattage) can be deceiving. It is recommended to look at output in dBs. Having the same Klipsch R120SW, I know it's 200 watts (400 peak) and capable of achieving 116 dB, but with an F3 of only 29 Hz. The Hsu uses more power (600/2000 watts), but it does so to enable its F3 of 17 Hz (1 port open), and that's what's important. I don't remember its max SPL in dB, but suffice it to say, it will destroy the Klipsch on all levels. It's a bona fide beast of a sub, and levels beyond the Best Buy level stuff like the Klipsch.

As far as current output, I am with you there! The R120SW is certainly NO SLOUCH when it comes to BOOM. For HT purposes, a single 120 in my 2300 cubic feet (open to another 2600 cubic feet in the kitchen!) shakes pictures and items on shelves, and that's with the gain set at ~1/3 and the AVR trim set at -8 dB! It's not a bad sub, especially on sale! But it can't compete with the low-tuned Hsu. You'll definitely benefit from that upgrade. I recommend starting with a single Hsu and buying a second once you've tried it out. I doubt you'll need the extra output (unless you're a bona fide AVS bass-hound), but the biggest benefit of dual subs is evening out the response between listening positions (assuming you're willing to invest in REW/UMIK-1).

One final note: the 120SW is fine for HT, I suppose, but it is boomy for music, lacking tightness. This also has an effect on HT, of course, but it's not as noticeable.


Ah okay that explains it a bit better than what i understood. And I believe i have my setup at 80 hz (its what was recommended online). Speaking of power from the outlet, do you know how much more power it draws from the outlet as opposed to the 120SW?

Also thank you for clearing that up in comparison to the 120SW, hearing it will destroy it reminds me of the comparison i did with the onkyo, which made it look like one of those cheap computer speakers.. lol. I do get what you mean about it shaking the stuff in the house, it does the same for me but it dissipates once i go downstairs. The only reason I upgraded to this one when I did was i was tight on money and the sub was on sale for half the price, so I couldn't pass it up.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for the input @rhelliott2, now theres another sub to debate against the MK3 lol. Is the MK2 better than the 3 that was recommended? And are the Rythmik / HSU only available online? I am in the Bay Area but I have not heard of these brands so I am not sure if they are available in stores here to purchase / demo.
 

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Thanks for the input @rhelliott2, now theres another sub to debate against the MK3 lol. Is the MK2 better than the 3 that was recommended? And are the Rythmik / HSU only available online? I am in the Bay Area but I have not heard of these brands so I am not sure if they are available in stores here to purchase / demo.
Yeah the VTF15H-MK2 can dig deeper than the smaller HSU. The Rythmik FV15HP is on a whole other level...it will blow the HSU away IMO.

I'm pretty close to you, I'm up in East Sacramento near Sac State University, once this whole Covid thing dies down you're more than welcome to check demo my Sub and get a taste of Low tuned Sub.


You can also check for any other member closer to you here.

The "I'll demo my subwoofer for other enthusiasts" thread. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1354149
 

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Internet direct only except HSU if you're close enough to drive. Make sure they are open to. If you want to spend more go ahead. Its a little better. Its basically 2 Hz and some output. Once again, barely audible. Is 2 Hz worth the added cost to you?
 
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And are the Rythmik / HSU only available online? I am in the Bay Area but I have not heard of these brands so I am not sure if they are available in stores here to purchase / demo.
ID, or Internet Direct, is the only way to go if you want to maximize your investment (unless you go DIY, Do-It-Yourself, i.e. build your own cabinet and order the driver and amp, etc.). But that does mean you'll likely not get to hear it unless you order it. This is good and bad. Bad b/c if you order it and get it in your home and don't like it, most ID companies will accept returns within 30 days or so at no charge, but you do have to pay return-shipping costs. But it's also good, b/c the only way to know how any sub/speaker will perform in your space, with your equipment, and your content, is to actually audition it in your home.

If you go with either Hsu, or a smaller (or bigger) Rythmik, I'm convinced (based on the 1000s of posts I've read here on AVS, as I've never heard either in person!) that it will provide deeper extension with more output and cleaner bass than the Klipsch. So it all comes down to what you want to spend and how much output you seek.
 

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Ah okay that explains it a bit better than what i understood. And I believe i have my setup at 80 hz (its what was recommended online). Speaking of power from the outlet, do you know how much more power it draws from the outlet as opposed to the 120SW?

The only reason I upgraded to this one when I did was i was tight on money and the sub was on sale for half the price, so I couldn't pass it up.
I, too, grabbed the 120SW when it went on super-sale at Crutchfield (I had a gift card). And it was a major step up from my 8" Kenwood HTiB subwoofer. Still glad I made that purchase - it has provided a lot of bang (and boom) for the buck. But these days I'm looking for similar output, just tighter, with lower extension.

What you should look for in any sub purchase is a good F3 value. The 120SW has an F3 of only 29 Hz, which means it's 3 dB down from peak output at 29 Hz. This means by the time you hit 20 Hz, it's probably down at F9 (or very likely much, much worse, as ported subs "drop off" very rapidly), meaning very little/no useful output. With room gain, you might hear a bit at 20 Hz, but it won't be great, as any other frequencies would dominate.

As far as power draw, I wouldn't worry about it too much. The difference between 600 and 200 watts sounds like a lot, but it's nothing your standard wall outlet can't supply. I've been told high-amperage hair dryers draw a lot more juice than a big sub. And the 2000 watt peaks will be few and far between, so again, it shouldn't be a problem. Most refrigerators these days have starting wattages in excess of 1500 watts, so it's similar to that.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks for the input @rhelliot2, I am in San Jose and looked at the thread you listed and the only one i see in the same city is someone with a HSU VTF-15H MK1, but as you said corona and all, it is probably not the best time to ask for a friendly demo.
@jwskud thats good to know that it won't have more of a draw than my current sub on the outlet.



Also, i have been looking at both subs VTF-15H MK2 Subwoofer and the Rhytmik FV15HP and it looks like the MK2 comes to about 1110$$ (taxes+shipping) and the Rhymik comes out to around 1435 (does not say tax for some reason?)..

Now its getting a little expensive lol with someone in that range I would definitely want to see a demo to experience the difference in person to see if it would be worth it to spend that much on either Sub, which i'm sure it is but I'd still like to see in person, ya know? I mean I can definitely spend the money if it makes sense to do the upgrade, as it will probably last me in the long run and I wouldn't have to upgrade for a long while, which is also what I am looking at.
 

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Now its getting a little expensive lol with someone in that range I would definitely want to see a demo to experience the difference in person to see if it would be worth it to spend that much on either Sub, which i'm sure it is but I'd still like to see in person, ya know? I mean I can definitely spend the money if it makes sense to do the upgrade, as it will probably last me in the long run and I wouldn't have to upgrade for a long while, which is also what I am looking at.
Most of the wise folks here on AVS will say (based on their own experience) that you should buy the absolute best subwoofer you possibly can (even if it means saving your $$ for a while)...and then immediately start saving for a second. This is wise b/c most people get a taste for deep extension and big output and want more and more. Of course, I firmly believe this can be (and is) overdone, to the point where you've got way more output than you could ever use. But again, I don't qualify as an AVS bass-hound.


For example, I'm watching the show Dark on Netflix, and every time there's one of those big bass-drops I'm squirming in my seat a bit b/c my 6-year-old daughter is asleep upstairs. So I trim the sub from -8 dB all the way to -12 dB. Do I need more bass? I say no. So for folks like me, who listen at 70-75 dB tops, I'd argue I don't need anything even as powerful as the Hsu or Rythmik F15HP. Do I occasionally let the bass blast during the day, especially with action flicks or music? Yes! But not enough to warrant massive output.


This is why my current plans have changed. Instead of pursuing a massive Rythmik FV18PC for my family room, I'm waiting on Chane's new Snell-based subs to release. These are supposed to be super-tight, clean subs with an F3 well below the Klipsch (I'm expecting the most powerful offering to have an F3 of 23 Hz or less). I'm planning to get two of them, going duals for the first time, to even out response in-room. I don't have specs yet for the final builds, but I've been told a single 10" will be a lot cleaner and tighter (and have more extension at similar output) than the Klipsch, so two will be more than I need in my current space.


If I move on to building a basement system (which I plan to do after this final dual sub purchase), then I will definitely pursue the FV18PC (duals), b/c it's a huge space, more isolated, and I'll want to blast movies down there.
 

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Most of the wise folks here on AVS will say (based on their own experience) that you should buy the absolute best subwoofer you possibly can (even if it means saving your $$ for a while)...and then immediately start saving for a second. This is wise b/c most people get a taste for deep extension and big output and want more and more. Of course, I firmly believe this can be (and is) overdone, to the point where you've got way more output than you could ever use. But again, I don't qualify as an AVS bass-hound.


For example, I'm watching the show Dark on Netflix, and every time there's one of those big bass-drops I'm squirming in my seat a bit b/c my 6-year-old daughter is asleep upstairs. So I trim the sub from -8 dB all the way to -12 dB. Do I need more bass? I say no. So for folks like me, who listen at 70-75 dB tops, I'd argue I don't need anything even as powerful as the Hsu or Rythmik F15HP. Do I occasionally let the bass blast during the day, especially with action flicks or music? Yes! But not enough to warrant massive output.
This exactly. Unless you have a sound proofed room or you live alone, good luck. I have dual HSU VTF-2 MK5s (ones with just the 12" woofers) and even they can vibrate my entire house (I can't even imagine what having a JTR captivator 4000 would do). Even with the smallest HSUs right now, playing movies in my basement at loud, but below reference volumes can be heard in my daughters rooms, which are on the 2nd story and on the other side of my ~5000 sq ft house. I basically have to have them off when watching anything if my wife is in bed, which is also on the 2nd story but directly above my theater. Man it would be awesome to have a concrete house.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Most of the wise folks here on AVS will say (based on their own experience) that you should buy the absolute best subwoofer you possibly can (even if it means saving your $$ for a while)...and then immediately start saving for a second. This is wise b/c most people get a taste for deep extension and big output and want more and more. Of course, I firmly believe this can be (and is) overdone, to the point where you've got way more output than you could ever use. But again, I don't qualify as an AVS bass-hound.


For example, I'm watching the show Dark on Netflix, and every time there's one of those big bass-drops I'm squirming in my seat a bit b/c my 6-year-old daughter is asleep upstairs. So I trim the sub from -8 dB all the way to -12 dB. Do I need more bass? I say no. So for folks like me, who listen at 70-75 dB tops, I'd argue I don't need anything even as powerful as the Hsu or Rythmik F15HP. Do I occasionally let the bass blast during the day, especially with action flicks or music? Yes! But not enough to warrant massive output.


This is why my current plans have changed. Instead of pursuing a massive Rythmik FV18PC for my family room, I'm waiting on Chane's new Snell-based subs to release. These are supposed to be super-tight, clean subs with an F3 well below the Klipsch (I'm expecting the most powerful offering to have an F3 of 23 Hz or less). I'm planning to get two of them, going duals for the first time, to even out response in-room. I don't have specs yet for the final builds, but I've been told a single 10" will be a lot cleaner and tighter (and have more extension at similar output) than the Klipsch, so two will be more than I need in my current space.


If I move on to building a basement system (which I plan to do after this final dual sub purchase), then I will definitely pursue the FV18PC (duals), b/c it's a huge space, more isolated, and I'll want to blast movies down there.


I know exactly what you mean about Dark on Netflix... when i watched it i noticed it had extreme bass lol, i thought it was just my other speakers not output enough vocal's but now I see its just how the show is, mostly bass lol. As far as adjusting the bass / settings on the sub.. when i first got it i set it to the recommended settings I found online and just left it there, only thing i pretty much adjust while viewing is just the total volume of the system lol.

And well now you both have me thinking, my room has not been sound proofed, and I live in this house with my brother, whos room is down the hall but the living room and kitchen are downstairs and i can definitely hear the bass down there with my klipsch, so now im worried about that as i have not thought about it haha.... I mean its not absolutely a problem unless it does shake the whole house violently haha ,and when i do my viewing its mostly in the morning or during the day for movies, and at night (if that) is just netflix or Cable viewing.

Edit: the bass can currently barely be felt to my brothers room, not an issue and we won't have problems haha
 

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Edit: the bass can currently barely be felt to my brothers room, not an issue and we won't have problems haha
Well, just wait till you bring in a Hsu or Rythmik or PSA sub, or anything with big output down low! The lower the frequency, the farther it travels (or so I've heard). I know a guy over on the Rythmik owners thread who ran 2 of their larger subs and the ULF could be heard across the street!

Well, the good thing is, with powerful subs that dig deep, you've got it if you want it (i.e. for daytime viewing). And at night you can just trim the bass/sub levels. Or get a pair of wireless headphones and cry listening to them, as you see your mighty (and expensive) subs sitting unused. ha
 
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