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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After searching the most reliable outlets for electronics I know of (Crutchfield, Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) all I can find are HDTV decoders with a price tag of $600 or more. I am not a cheapskate (I have invested well over $10,000+ in my current hardware), but I hate to blow that much of my paycheck without knowing that it is my only choice.


I have considered the Time Warner route (they rent the box to you for $4.95 per month) and then I realized I would have higher bills than DirecTV and I would have to give up my TiVo service.


I have looked online on EBay and here in the classifieds and found only a Mitsubishi HD-1080 (piece of junk?) that won't work with my Pioneer RPTV.


Suggestions, comments?


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Your choices are really a lot broader than you found...


I have seen the Toshiba DST-3000 (DirecTV) as low as $400 using Dealtime or Google searches. The DISH 6000 can be had on eBay for as little as $389.00 without 8VSB module...and the DTC-100 on eBay is the same price.


Keep in mind that the Time Warner route will not provide you an over the air decoder, plus the 2000HD is really a pretty awful implementation...but without a DVI connector, none of the above options will provide you with HD if the sat companies end up 'downrezing' their premium content. With that caveat, you are better served going the Time Warner route (using a splitter off your cable connection to record to TIVO) and waiting for new options that include DVI connectors.


Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Forgive my lack of knowledge, but what is a DVI connector?


I had considered the fact that I could be purchasing a dinosaur if I buy a decoder now and you may be furthering that idea.


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Considering the amount of posts to this forum on the subject, let's just say that a lot of people hate the idea of DVI/HDCP. For more information, you should probably try a search on DVI in this and other HD forums.


Unfortunately, the MPAA probably will not release very much premium content until they can be assured that their HD content doesn't end up on Morpheus or other file sharing system as a 4 hour broadband download.


So, in so much as I understand their position , (not to start a flame war in any way!), DVI/HDCP is probably a good thing for anyone who is looking to buy HDTV in the future. It's just at least a year away from being implemented.


The flame war on me may start because everyone who has already purchased either an HD ready TV or a sat box from DISH or DirecTV may end up being 'downrezed' because most current sets (JVC and some front projection digital projectors the exception) don't have the connector.


There's more on this issue by doing searches as well.


With that said, my position is to wait until DirecTV and DISH have DVI/HDCP options to buy a set top box. Especially with the 2000HD explorer option from Time Warner being (relatively) free, it's an easy decision. The TV is another matter...altogether.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I see your point. It seems to be about preventing HD recordings.


I was concerned about the HD hardware being outdated soon and this seems to be a step in that direction...
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
So just to clarify...


DVI is a connection from the decoder box to the display device, right? This is an uncompressed, raw data transfer resulting in less noise and picture problems, right?


If I am right, please confirm. If not, please correct.


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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Do you have to have a DVI input on your set/display device?


I don't think mine does, but maybe I am missing it.


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From my knowledge of it, which is probably very limited compared to others in these forums..


DVI- Divital Visual Interface

HDCP- High Bandwidth Digital Content Protection


The DVI/HDCP interface is a way for the movie studios to prevent people from making copies of their content. This interface will most likely show up on STBs and the TVs themselves, but will not be allowed on recording products such as D-VHS and so forth. ( Whats to stop this I don't know - Maybe the Digtial Display Working Group at http://www.ddwg.org )


There are a bunch of varieties of DVI as well (DVI-D, DVI-I, DVI-A, ADC, P&D, DFP, and OpenLDI). I am not sure which one we will see, but am assuming it will be the DVI-D variety.


That I know of, only the following manufacturers have products that have a DVI input: JVC (AV36P902), Fujitsu (PDS5002), Marantz (PV5580W), and Yamaha (DPX1). So it is my prediction that if DVI/HDCP ever becomes a standard, it probably will not be for quite some time. How could DirecTV and DISH all of a sudden say "okay, we are using DVI/HDCP now even though only 1% of all TVs out there support this" They can't, not at least until more TVs are actually supporting the interface.


My take on it anyway.


Rebies
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
You're right. They will probably offer the DVI connection, but not very many people will use it. It seems like this is a way to prevent copying HD material.


Does the DVI connection offer a better picture than even VGA outputs?


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An important thought, though...it's the satellite providers intent to preclude anyone that does not have DVI from viewing content at full resolution. This concept is called 'downrezing' and what it means is that even if you never record or own a Digital VCR, without the connector, you won't be able to view content in full 1080i resolution.


To me, this is a big deal. I really have no interest in recording HD, as DVD is pretty terrific in 480P...but I do want to be able to watch the Sopranos or other event on HBO or Showtime in full resolution, not half or a third of resolution as has been discussed earlier.


Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I agree with you. If a major company can make their product more exclusive, they will certainly do it. If this HDTV gig isn't the best chance at that to do it, I don't know what is!


Then again...


What about the lack of DVI connections on current display devices? The turnout for DVI outputs will begin in well under a year, I bet. But will they provide an adapter for your VGA input (or similiar input)?


I have a fairly hi-fi RPTV (last year's Pioneer) and I bet they give us some kind of adapter and the "obsolete" units will be the old (now current) set top boxes. If you don't use DVI, you won't see full 1080i.


Comment, suggestions?


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Good questions...the primary one being...will they provide an adapter.


I doubt it...because, if they did provide an adapter, you'd still have a way to record via analog via the adapter.


The whole thing is a mess, but I'd recommend you do what I did, which is to contact Pioneer (in my case, Toshiba) for an explanation on their position of HDTV with DVI. My guess is that next years model Pioneer may have DVI inputs.


Whether they offer an upgrade path or retrofit is the question.


Your manufacturer may also come back with a statement that sits on the proverbial fence. Something to the effect that..."you can still receive HDTV over the air, so your set is still HD compatible."


This, even though you won't be able to receive either DISH, DIRECTV or other premium service without the connector(s).
 

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Ok, you guys need to do some reading. Basically you're talking about the wrong scheme here. There are two encryption schemes being proposed: DVI/HDCP and Firewire/DTCP (5C). DVI/HDCP is not the one being endorsed by most of the players involved and it's the least likely to be adopted. Furthermore, the two schemes are not mutually exclusive and, since they have different strengths and weaknesses, the possibility exists that BOTH could be adopted for different applications.


The copy-protection issue has been discussed ad infinitum in this Forum over the past year and, if you run a search for the terms DVI, HDCP, DTCP, and Firewire, you will come up with numerous threads that will answer all your questions.


A preliminary search turned up 33 threads from the past few months. Please familiarize yourselves with the issue before continuing your discussion. Some of the information on this thread is inaccurate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Sure, some of it is inaccurate, or so you say...


What is the problem here? I don't want to sift through my results of 773 threads to read advanced details I don't understand.


I want to learn. Fill me in, Vic.


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I'm sorry Vic, but I beg to differ. What I care about is the MPAA and the MPAA will NOT endorse Firewire and some consumer electronics manufacturers state that they don't believe that IEEE1394 has enough bandwidth to do effective HD.


If you check the following press releases, you will see that DVI/HDCP is endorsed by both DISH, DIRECTV and Cablelabs. 1394 has not been endorsed by the MPAA, meaning even if our gear supported it, we'd still not get HD from premium sources.


From DirecTV's website: (also mentioning DISH)

http://www.directv.com/press/pressde...12,422,00.html


And, this, from Cablelabs

http://www.cablelabs.com/news_room/P...tv_072501.html
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by McPatrickClan
Sure, some of it is inaccurate, or so you say...


What is the problem here? I don't want to sift through my results of 773 threads to read advanced details I don't understand.


I want to learn. Fill me in, Vic.


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There are no shortcuts here, guys. You need to do the work. All the information you need is in the link I provided in my previous post. Like I said, this issue has been rehashed here ad nauseaum and I'm not inclined to go down that road again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I agree with Reese. Many people can read many things and conclude different things. What do you disagree with bro?


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I hate to bring this thread back to the original question but here goes.


The Dish 6000 can be purchased for under $500 from http://www.allsat.com/product.shtml

This is the lowest price I found for current Dish subscribers wanted to add a second unit. (There are ample discounts for first time Dish subsctibers.)


The Toshiba DTS 3000 DirectTv sat hd receiver can be purchased from Video Only from John in San Mateo, CA at 510-388-7016 for about $500 shipped. There is another Video Only store that may offer additional discount but do a serach for a thread entitled Toshiba 3000 (or search Video Only.)


So you are down from $600.


Also if you already have a Dish 6000, you can use both the hd vga output and the hd component output for two different hd tvs. The single set of hd component outputs on the Toshiba 3000 (or any other hd receiver) can be split with Monster audio splitters (one male to two females available from Audio Advisor) to run two hd signals simultaneously to two hd tvs.

Shelly
 
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