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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My theory?


No.


And don't get me wrong here, I am no expert, this is all just my deductive reasoning, so if you can prove me wrong, by all means do so.


The thing I keep thinking about is how they all must output through HDMI/DVI even though they have Component Video. If they can upscale to higher than 480, then they should also be able to output through Component in that resolution, but they don't. Many people will tell you that HDMI is no better than Component even though manufacturers would have you believe otherwise.


My theory is that these players don't really upscale the DVD, but rather trick the TV into doing less conversion, which at the end of the day is what ****s up the picture quality of DVD on a higher resolution TV.


If the DVD is output through component for 480p, a 720p TV will upconvert that 480 ANALOG signal to 720 and then deinterlace it again. Some may argue with this, but I don't see anyway how a tv can take a deinterlaced signal and upscale it without having to deinterlace it again. If it took in 480i, it would deinterlace it once after the upscale right? That is all it knows to do. It displays one resolution, PROGRESSIVELY.


So, my theory is that these players simply output digitally through HDMI so that the TV does all the converting, and less of it. This is not possible with Component, because there would be another conversion and you would see no difference between 480p Component and the upconversion that they want you to believe is happening (ie, people would return the product). Infact, it might look worse through Component upconversion versus 480p.


This explains why you see countless people complain that they don't see a big difference, while others claim to see a significantly better picture.


The answer is, how good the TV's scaler is, coupled with how good the player is, because even though they don't upscale, a $79 Samsung is not going to have as good a processor as a Denon or Oppo, or whatever.
 

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Read the link in my sig for an education on 'upscaling'.
 

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I also cover this in the AVR FAQ, but not as well as Bob's writeup
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by googleme7 /forum/post/14177009


If the DVD is output through component for 480p, a 720p TV will upconvert that 480 ANALOG signal to 720 and then deinterlace it again. Some may argue with this, but I don't see anyway how a tv can take a deinterlaced signal and upscale it without having to deinterlace it again. If it took in 480i, it would deinterlace it once after the upscale right? That is all it knows to do. It displays one resolution, PROGRESSIVELY.

Pardon my saying so, but this is totally wrong. A TV _can_ accept 480p and just upscale it to the panel's native resolution without any further de-interlacing. Of course that means that inside the TV the input signals for 480i and 480p take slightly different paths, but there is no reason why this would be impossible.
 

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How would you deinterlace a signal that's been deinterlaced already? I am unclear where your confusion lies.


You are 100% correct that addressable pixel displays are progressive though. You are also correct in that they know how to display exactly one resolution.


The following steps would occur, in order, as needed -

* Convert analog signals into the digital domain, if necessary

* Deinterlace if necessary

* Scale the video to it's native resolution
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/14178146


How would you deinterlace a signal that's been deinterlaced already? I am unclear where your confusion lies.


You are 100% correct that addressable pixel displays are progressive though. You are also correct in that they know how to display exactly one resolution.


The following steps would occur, in order, as needed -

* Convert analog signals into the digital domain, if necessary

* Deinterlace if necessary

* Scale the video to it's native resolution


Deductive reasoning. According to the reviews by CNET, on 99% of 720p TV's, they notice detail loss when they are fed a 1080i signal.


You would assume with what these TV's cost, that they would do a better job downconverting and de-interlacing than upconverting and de-interlacing, but apparently that is not the case.


So, the real question is, if it doesn't do another progressive scan when upconverting 480p to 720p, then why would the picture look sharper when going 480i to 720p? See, they are bypassing that original progressive scan.


So, it's going 480i > 720p instead of...


480i > 480p > 720p
 

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I think the biggest issue of upconverting is, some display are verry good at deinterlacing and scaling, while some are horrible. The people with quality displays will not notice much of a difference at all. The people with not so good displays will notice a large improvement with upconverting players. Newer TV's are getting better and better with video processing and the need for upconverting players is probably getting smaller and smaller.
 

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Quote:
Deductive reasoning. According to the reviews by CNET, on 99% of 720p TV's, they notice detail loss when they are fed a 1080i signal.

Many TVs do a very poor job of deinterlacing 1080i and you end up with 540 scaled to the TVs native res.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1107hook2/

Quote:
So, the real question is, if it doesn't do another progressive scan when upconverting 480p to 720p, then why would the picture look sharper when going 480i to 720p? See, they are bypassing that original progressive scan.


So, it's going 480i > 720p instead of...


480i > 480p > 720p

Don't know where you are getting this but very few TVs handle 480i very well and MichaelJHuman is correct.

Quote:
The following steps would occur, in order, as needed -

* Convert analog signals into the digital domain, if necessary

* Deinterlace if necessary

* Scale the video to it's native resolution
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklac /forum/post/14180120


I think the biggest issue of upconverting is, some display are verry good at deinterlacing and scaling, while some are horrible. The people with quality displays will not notice much of a difference at all. The people with not so good displays will notice a large improvement with upconverting players. Newer TV's are getting better and better with video processing and the need for upconverting players is probably getting smaller and smaller.

We have a winner. I will add that a good up-converting player (like a Toshiba HDDVD player) will do a better job of deinterlaceing and scaling then just about any TV could on its own.


I have seen a PRO-1150HD (not a low end TV) get feed a standard dvd player (sony) and then the same movie played on a XA2 the difference was amazing.


My PS3 does a much better job then my old JVC player on my 50PZ77u.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tower101 /forum/post/14181562


Don't know where you are getting this but very few TVs handle 480i very well and MichaelJHuman is correct.

I've had several different progressive scan players hooked up to my VX32L (admittedly a somewhat lower end display) and all produced a far better image with output set to 480p rather than 480i. As you say, though, this result will probably hold true for almost all TVs, since sending a 480i signal to the TV will result in some degradation in image quality, which in turn is bound to create problems during de-interlacing.


For 768p displays, I would guess a 480p signal from a quality P/S player would be best since the 720p or 1080i output from an upconverter would result in a second rescaling to 768p. The fact that very few upconverters have a 768p output sort of confirms I think that upconverting players are a scam.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike999 /forum/post/14182751


The fact that very few upconverters have a 768p output sort of confirms I think that upconverting players are a scam.

Not all 768 panels accept a 768 signal; there's no standard for it.


It's true that most of the magic is in the deinterlacing, but I think "scam" is a bit harsh. I can see the difference between 480p and 720p or 1080p from a good player on my LCD. It's not night-and-day, but when you are trying to squeeze out the last few percent of video quality from SD-DVD, you have to pursue these things.


-Bill
 

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What I don't understand is this:


Since there are many 1366X768 panels and it wouldn't be impossible to make one that would accept 1366X768.


And since it would be quite possible to produce an upconvert player that would do a fantastic job at outputting 1366X768--much better than the displays do at trying to recreate 1366X768--


Why don't we see that combination?


Has there ever been a DVD player that would output the custom resolution of 1366X768?


And has there ever been a display that would accept 1366X768?


If the answers to both questions are yes--how good would the picture be if you hooked that combination up--assuming of course that the player did in fact do a fantastic job at outputting 1366X768 and the display did a fantastic job at not altering in anyway the 1366X768 that it was receiving?


In other words is such a combination conceivable?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood /forum/post/14210690


What I don't understand is this:


Since there are many 1366X768 panels and it wouldn't be impossible to make one that would accept 1366X768.


And since it would be quite possible to produce an upconvert player that would do a fantastic job at outputting 1366X768--much better than the displays do at trying to recreate 1366X768--


Why don't we see that combination?

God, I wish my Oppo would scale to 1366x768.



Pretty much stuck with computers or external video processors for that resolution.
 

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I'd like to hear Bob Pariseau's answer to that possible combination.


Has anyone ever asked him that?


Others feel free to chime in.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood /forum/post/14210690


Has there ever been a DVD player that would output the custom resolution of 1366X768?

The Vizio Bravo D1 and D2 players plus any of the other Sigma chipset-based players (ie. Momitsu V880 , SnaZio SZ1300 series, etc.) are capable of virtually any custom resolution including 1366X768 or 1024x768
Quote:
has there ever been a display that would accept 1366X768?

Probably not.
 

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What's the point of having a player that outputs 1366x768 if no display can accept that resolution?


If you ask me, SD material is simply never going to look as good on an HDTV as it does on a quality tube TV. The upscaling process is always going to produce a slight hit on the video quality no matter what you do, and people are kidding themselves if they think an upconverting player can make their DVDs look as good as they did on a flatscreen Sony tube.
 

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My simple answer to the simple original question is that YES - PLAYERS REALLY UP CONVERT/UP SCALE!


Not being a techno-crat in our house we just go by what our eyeballs tell us.


Our mid-price Sony up scaling player outputs a significantly better image to our 1080p HD TV and our 720p projector than the image processors built into the TV and projector. No comparison.


My under-educated expectation is that as image processors get more powerful and better along with the operating software they will be able to analyze most any image of most any quality - 480p focus of this thread - and render an improved output resolution that will rival any HD format player - it's all in the evolution of the processor and its' ability to take digital information and enhance - soon probably even able to create a decent 3D output.


Anyway, our personal experience is that up scaling/converting dvd players can do a better job than image processors built into the HD TVs and projectors we have personal experience using according to our personal eyeballs and at the end of this kind of debate the EYES always have the last word!!!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by imjay /forum/post/14217386



My under-educated expectation is that as image processors get more powerful and better along with the operating software they will be able to analyze most any image of most any quality - 480p focus of this thread - and render an improved output resolution that will rival any HD format player

480 will never...never...never look like 720 or 1080. Not in this universe. You cannot fill in information that does not exist.


Upscaling is vastly inferior to 99% of the optical HD material available. Even the best upscalers ( OPPO or Toshiba XA2) do not come close to the output of a real HD machine.
 

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Has anyone here ever used a Momitsu V880 with a 1366X768 display that accepted 1366X768?


What were the results?


if I was in charge of a company that produced upscale players and 1366X768 plasmas I'd make it so the player outputted 1366X768 and the plasmas accepted 1366X768.


How much benefit would there possibly be with that combination?


Wat if Oppo produced a player like that


Don't tell me that no one would buy it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood /forum/post/14220880


if I was in charge of a company that produced upscale players and 1366X768 plasmas I'd make it so the player outputted 1366X768 and the plasmas accepted 1366X768.


How much benefit would there possibly be with that combination?

If you were in charge you could put the same scaling in your plasma as in the player in which case 480p from the player would work just as well. Put in the same deinterlacing and 480i would be fine.

Quote:
Wat if Oppo produced a player like that

It's been discussed (but not promised) as a firmware upgrade for the 983. There is no 768 signal standard; not all such displays are 1366 wide, so you are looking at support issues.

Quote:
Don't tell me that no one would buy it.

I would say a small number, but larger than 0.


Are the Blu-Ray users clamoring for 768p?


-Bill
 
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