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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been watching a lot of HDTV since finally putting up my antenna and installing the Dish 6000. I watch all this on my Pioneer Elite 510. I am noticing a disturbing trend with all face close ups:


Facial tones seems to be moving around and really grainy. It looks different than pixelization. It looks like my Elite is not set up right. I checked the picture settings while in HD mode and the only settings that I can alter are:


Color

Sharpness

Temperature


The contrast control is "greyed out"


Anyone experiencing this?




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David
 

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Close ups on OTA HD signals as well as DTV HBO HD are razor sharp, for the most part, and not at all grainy. Do you have your sharpness control up too high? Your description of facial tones "moving around" sounds like a compression issue on Dish. I see that quite a bit on non HD channels on DTV, but never on high def channels.
 

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There is nothing grainy about the HD picture on my Sony 61HS10. The other day while watching the Masters on CBS I could see gnats buzzing around in the air by the player's heads. Also, when one guy was putting, you could see an ant in great detail crawling by the cup. Faces are so detailed that you can see the pores on the skin.


Have you ever done a setup with Video Essentials or Avia? It sounds like your set might need to be tweaked. Or maybe the options between the Dish STB and your RPTV are nor correct. What you describe is similar to my HS10 when it upconverts a 480i SD picture to 960i using it's DRC. If the source is not very good you get some grain and some movement.


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Dave B.

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David,


Where is the Sharpness control set on your 510? This sounds like the artifacts that are introduced when the S. control is turned up. The S. control only works in the middle of the bandwidth. It doesn't improve the high end. As a matter of fact, it ruins the resolution. It causes "sizzeling" in the picture and will add "ringing" around objects.


Try lowering the S. Control. It will soften the image a bit but your eyes will tell your brain to improve what you see. You might even turn it all the way off.


You also might have the COLOR control set too high. This will also cause problems. Try turning it down a bit.


See if these improves the image.


I have the 6000 with a 125" picture which is 4X bigger than yours. Believe me I would see a problem with an image long before you would and what you describe...I don't see.


Make the adjustments and post your results. You may have a problem with your 510 after all, but these are simple fixs.


Lee
 

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on some programs I get what seems to be a bit of film grain, on others it's crystal clear, rock solid. I think its in the program material.


CSI just now looked great!


jake
 

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The only time you should see grain with a HD picture is when watching a film that was converted from film to HD. Film naturally will contain grain and tends to show up on HD if it already is there on film. If your talking live or any other type of HD then you definetly have your settings wrong or the HDTV is having problems!


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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross:
Close ups on OTA HD signals as well as DTV HBO HD are razor sharp, for the most part, and not at all grainy. Do you have your sharpness control up too high? Your description of facial tones "moving around" sounds like a compression issue on Dish. I see that quite a bit on non HD channels on DTV, but never on high def channels.
Dish has an entire transponder dedicated to each HD channel, and does no additional compression (transcoding) to the signal they receive from the content provider. The only manipulation of the HD datastream is for encryption.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·


While watching CSI last night there is no doubt my picture was grainy. I messed with the sharpness control and could not improve the picture. I did not experience these issues while watching The Masters last weekend.


I just finished looking at The Sopranos: The first season DVD and I had the saw similar problems with the picture, especially when close up on Tony. I plan on calling Pioneer at this point.


David




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David
 

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I believe most (if not all) of CBS HD primetime shows are film-based. I think this is one reason they're able to have so much HD content; they were using film before HD so they didn't need to upgrade all their cameras, etc.


jake
 

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Diagnosis Murder is the only show not transferred to HD, because it shot with HD cameras.

As far as CSI being grainy. The 9pm episode was indeed more grainier than usual. However the 10pm episode was just fine.
 

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I really do believe that is the "artistic" intent of CSI. The grainy look is something that is characteristic of this show and no other on CBS that I can think of. I personally don't care for that look and can't begin to understand what is "artistic" about it.
 

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I have noticed that CSI Investigators is very grainy. i think the producers may do this on purpose. All other programming is fine. I have a Pionerr Elite 700HD and the Mits receiver
 

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David,


There is nothing wrong with your Elite. There is nothing wrong with your calibration either. I say this because you are comparing The Masters with CSI and The Sopranos.


The Masters was a program that originated in HD using Sony HDCAM cameras and broadcast in HD. The other two programs are 35mm film based which are telecined to HD tape.


"Native" HD has that "looking out a window" appearance while film converted to HD does not. As stated in previous posts the resolution of HDCAM is almost 50% greater than than 35mm converted (800 versus 1200 TV lines).


What you are seeing is normal.


Lee
 

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A while back, in his 2/12 note in this thread , broadcast engineer Glimmie wrote:


"Most HDTV film is transferred today from the Phillips "Sprit" telecine. This is a full 1920y 960pr/pb x 1 line sensor. A 1 line CCD works in a telecine because the film is moving. CRT based telecines such as Cintel and InnovationTK are more difficult to measure due to the analog front end."


If Gimmie is right and 35mm is scanned at the full theoretical 1080iX1920 luminance and color resolution, does anyone know at what point in the transmission chain it's being knocked down to 800 lines (a 58% reduction)? Any online references? Perhaps that's 800 lines per picture height, or 1.78X800=1424? Thanks. -- John


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[This message has been edited by John Mason (edited 04-14-2001).]
 
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