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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm thinking about the Sony HS10 LCD PJ and it has a DCVI input. My question is whether DVI is superior to Component in this case. Right now I have the Panny RP82 And I think it's great.


There doesnt seem to be many DVI output Players these days though.:rolleyes:


Flan
 

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Samsung will release a DVI/HDCP player in June and V,Inc has the $199 Bravo DVI/HDCP (sort of) player available now. Look for the Bravo D1 thread currently running in this forum. Check out the thread for component vs DVI quality (at least with this player). For the Bravo D1, it is a big deal.
 

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I'm sorry to say that DVI does not make a BIG Picture Quality difference. It's actually less flexible than your regular VGA input. Maximum resolution over DVI is 1280*960 if I'm not mistaken..


We haven't even touched upon the limits of component video today so you won't get a big difference, even though it looks theoretically better.


But nevertheless I run a 5m DVI cable from my computer with Geforce 3 card to my projector. Unfortunately Geforce cards are bugged and wont output 1280*720 over DVI in 16:9 resolution. I have to output 1280*960 and use the "pixel to pixel" feature in my PJ to get proper mapping to the 1280*720 native DMD of the Sim2 HT300+ The result is perfect though.


/Sincerely

Fredrik
 

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The Bravo D1 is capable of 1920x1080i or 1280x720p over DVI. Here's a link to the V,Inc site:

http://www.vinc.us/


The difference between component and DVI will be in the quality of video DACs, cables and processing capability. The DVI connection on a DVD player allows for an all digital connection from the MPEG decoder to the display's processor. You're essentially eliminating a set of cables and another D/A conversion for the video.


It's all subjective. My suggestion is to try it out for yourself with your equipment. Just as in audio only YOUR ears should be the judge, only YOUR eyes should be used to judge the video.
 

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Quote:
Maximum resolution over DVI is 1280*960 if I'm not mistaken..
I am currently running my SX21 at 1400X1050 over DVI and it looks stunning. There is a small but perceptible difference when using DVI.
 

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Here's Jason's AVS post regarding the PQ of the DVI V Bravo D1 over Analog component.

April 18, 2003

AVSFORUM.com
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...85#post2121285


JasonATL

Senior Member


Registered: Jul 2001

Location: Roswell, GA

Posts: 437

Three words: V Inc.


Okay, I finally got a chance to run this thing through for a couple of hours. Here's my report (that is pretty consistent with what others are reporting).


Hardware references:

I have three Sony DVD players (an older 650, an NS900V, and an NS755V). I use the NS900V, though I've not been able to discern a huge difference among the three. To me, the NS900V had the best picture along with its better overall build quality.

I've been using the NS900V connected via component, outputting 480i, to my InFocus 7200 projector on an 8' wide 16:9 Stewart Filmscreen Firehawk. My main viewing position is about 17'-18' feet from the screen, but I also viewed most material from about 13'-14'.

The Bravo is connected through a 30' DVI cable. My observations, unless otherwise noted, are with the Bravo via DVI at 720p output.

I'm running the audio through a B&K Ref 50 pre/pro. The Sony DVD player is connected via coax, the Bravo via optical (more on that later).


Software:

Calibrated the Bravo/InFocus with AVIA, which altered the contrast and brightness settings quite drastically from where they were with the Sony.

I watched several early scenes each of Toy Story, Star Trek: Insurrection, Star Wars Ep. II AOTKC, and Hunt For Red October (note that this is non-anamorphic letterbox).


Impressions:

Overall picture: Beautiful! Gorgeous! As good as I've ever seen! The obvious disclaimers apply -- I haven't seen much, except for demos at retailers and my own experiences in my home theater which is only a couple of weeks old. Plus, I've had it less than 6 hours. But, the picture quality is dramatically improved with the Bravo via DVI compared with the Sony via component. This isn't night and day. For example, it isn't the difference between DVD and HDTV. It is still DVD. But, it is quite a bit closer than I expected for $200. The improvement is noticeable and, in my opinion, is significant enough to more than justify the $200. I have no doubt that it beats any DVD picture I've seen.


Specifically, the picture is more stable. Not necessarily smoother. In fact, in some cases, the picture is noticeably more harsh -- though not in an entirely bad way. On Insurrection, the opening titles were solid, but their hard edges showed. The overall picture appeared, in some ways, grainier. After going back to the Sony for comparison, the difference seemed to be that I was getting more detail with Bravo. In other words, I think I am seeing more of the DVD's true resolution, not smoothing any of it out too much. Star Wars Ep. II looked much better (I presume due to a nicer transfer). Indoor scenes with the deep blue and red tones on static (non-moving) backgrouds revealed far less "noise" using the Bravo DVI than with the Sony. Again, the picture was more stable and clean. In action scenes, things are as clear as they get. I seem to perceive more detail via Bravo DVI. Toy Story was as expected: rock solid. In looking for Chroma problems, I didn't see them. If they are there, they are mild. In summary, the picture from the Bravo DVD is more filmlike in that there seems to be less "electronic" noise. The picture almost seems like it has film grain, though it is more likely the resolution limitations of the DVD medium.


720p vs. 480p: I tried this by setting the Bravo DVI output to 480p and letting the outstanding scalar in the InFocus 7200 do the scaling. Not much of a difference, but the Bravo at 720p looked smoother and more detailed (a contradiction?) to me. I left it at 720p. There are no deinterlacing artifacts on the DVD's I've watched so far.


Copy Protection: I had a message when I first inserted Insurrection that it was restricted and could not be played until I set the output to 480p. As aaron has pointed out, a simple work-around is to toggle the Bravo's video output after the DVD has started playing (where "playing" simply refers to the disc spinning, menus appearing, etc. -- not literally playing the movie). I did not see this message again, but didn't try to make it happen again either, given that it was so easy to "defeat". Note to fence-sitters: if they fix this in future runs of this machine, you'll kick yourself -- maybe: the differences between 480p and 720p were so small on my projector that I'd still love this player. The key is that the unbroken digital chain via DVI at 480p or 720p is so much better than analog component, that I would think any display with a decent digital scaler will benefit, even if restricted to 480p output from the Bravo.


Non-anamporphic: Shockingly good handling of letterboxed (non-anamorphic) material. Hunt for Red October is one of the few movies that I've watched all the way through in my young home theater. The picture was tolerable via the Sony. On the Bravo, using the "Zoom 1" mode, it was close to anamorphic quality from the Sony. That is, I was stunned at how much better this movie looked. For its scaling of non-anamorphic letterboxed movies alone, the Bravo is worth every penny. Is it better than other machines? I don't know, I could never find one near this price that I could actually put my hands on. But, it is a huge step up from my other players that don't have a zoom feature.


In sum, I'm happy as can be that I bought this. I will not be sending it back. I'll keep my Sony NS900V, but it is relegated to stand-alone SACD player. If you want to use the Bravo D1 as an audiophile transport, forget it. But, as a video transport, using optical out, it is awesome. I hope this machine doesn't wear out. Maybe I should buy a second one to have around in case the other one goes kaput. That is how much I love this machine. I'd be devastated if it stopped working.


As a post-script, I couldn't get the audio analogy out of my head. Some great hi-end speakers are reputed to be "revealing". Good material sounds good, but bad recordings are exposed. Some equipment can sound "bright" or "harsh", while the speakers reveal the most detail and nuances in the music. To me, this describes the Bravo D1. Insurrection looked a bit harsh in the opening credits. Once the movie got rolling, it simply looked great -- smooth, yet detailed. Toy story nevery looked bad and I thought I saw details or textures I hadn't noticed. Where the analogy ends is with the non-anamorphic letterboxed material. Here is the worst DVD has to offer, and it still looked great via the Bravo D1 (which cannot be said for the Sony players I have).


__________________

-Jason

Atlanta DTV/HDTV info: www.atlantadtv.org
 

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For DVD playing using DVI over component you might not see the difference. There are other circumstances to consider: cable length of either, the video chip that processes the signal and the quality of the cables.

However, if all of these things are equal (except for length) then the DVI will have a better picture. This question has been posted on almost all of the subjects that use DVI or component (HDTV hardware, HTPC and Display devices, especially digital >5K).
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Is there a limit to how long you can run a DVI cable? I dont plan to run more that 25'.


BTW has anyone bought cables from Pacific Cables? They seem to be resonably priced. Which ones would you get? There's a lot of different ones!


Flan
 

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Flan


Take a look at the DVI tutorial at:

http://www.pacificcable.com/DVI_Tutorial.htm


There are many AVSforum members who recommend Pacific and I think I will buy my DVI cable there when I get a new DVD player. From looking at the tutorial and the back of my Sony 34xbr800, I can see the 34xbr800 is DVI-D dual link female port. If I wanted to hook a Bravo D1 DVD player to it, I can see from this link:

http://www.vinc.us./pictures/bravo_d1_back.jpg


that the back of this DVD player is DVI-I dual link female port. According to the tutorial, I would purchase a DVI-D to DVI-D dual link cable with male connectors (but according to AVS forum posts, single link would work fine too). Hope this helps. :)


Rick
 

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Although JasonATL could see an improvement with his DLP PJ, won't the rest of us see virtually no difference with our CRT or LCD based units because even the DVI signal is converted to analog before the image is shown?


Isn't DVI just a method for the MPAA and manufacturers to remove our home recording rights without overturning the courts ruling on such?


I'd support a unit which includes both DVI and full res component outputs, but not one which only allows full res on the DVI.
 

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This is what i want to know....how the bravo outputting through DVI looks like on a CRT RPTV? Also against a RP82. Anyone?
 

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The problem with DVI is the lack of complete calibration control of the picture. Yes, I know, its "supposed" to be bypassing the analog signal but on a calibrated TV, projector, etc., the DVI doesn't look good as a fully calibrated component input.


I had Kevin Miller of ISF fame do my setup and the calibrated component input was clearly better than the DVI input due to lack of complete calibration.


Just my .02 cents


Nic
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by NKUEHN


I had Kevin Miller of ISF fame do my setup and the calibrated component input was clearly better than the DVI input due to lack of complete calibration.

Nic
Nic-

What type and brand/model display do you have?
 

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Sharp Z10000
 

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mflan - The difference on the HS10 should be huge for a couple reasons.

Since it has the resolution to do 720P in 1:1 pixel mapping, there will be no conversions at all. No digital to analog and no scaling. If you've ever seen how great the hs10 looks on through mode for DVD, imagine how that will look full screen with a tiny border rather than small with a huge border.


No scaling, no conversions should equal (close to) no artifacts! And they tried to tell us our WXGA resolution and hdcp didn't matter. HAH!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
HTCrazy,

Thx for the reply. It seems hard to justify in your mind that a (MSRP) $2999.00 PJ is better than a 7999.00 PJ. But I guess thats the progression of technology. I just dont want to get rid of my 10HT and regret getting the HS10. But I really like the DVI input. I'd like to pick up a Bravo D1 DVD Player to hook up to it. I already have the Dish 6000 HD receiver to go with it.


I think getting the Bravo and HS10 would be an upgrade from the 10HT and RP82


Flan
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by HTCrazy
mflan - The difference on the HS10 should be huge for a couple reasons.

Since it has the resolution to do 720P in 1:1 pixel mapping, there will be no conversions at all. No digital to analog and no scaling. If you've ever seen how great the hs10 looks on through mode for DVD, imagine how that will look full screen with a tiny border rather than small with a huge border.


No scaling, no conversions should equal (close to) no artifacts! And they tried to tell us our WXGA resolution and hdcp didn't matter. HAH!
Just a note to clarify what is happening WRT scaling. There is scaling being done in this scenario, it just isn't being done in the PJ. The D1 is scaling from 480p - 720p. There is still the possibility of scaling artifacts caused by the D1 scaler.


Having said that, I have seen no artifacts when using my D1 outputting at 720P to my PJ. The D1 produces a remarkable image at a remarkable price.


Enjoy!
 

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Mflan - I've spent some time with the 11HT and think overall the HS10 has somewhat better color saturation and depth and thus a slightly better picture. Plus screen door on the 11HT was a significant issue and is almost non-existant with the HS10.


That said, I'll bet a properly tweaked 10HT over component wouldn't feel hugely slighted by the HS10. But with these new DVI players, I'm guessing the perceived improvement will be more dramatic.


Can't wait to find out for sure, though. And Denis's impressions of no artifact confirm what Alan Gouger has also observed.


Oh yeah, and now they're out of stock. :rolleyes:
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by NKUEHN
The problem with DVI is the lack of complete calibration control of the picture. Yes, I know, its "supposed" to be bypassing the analog signal but on a calibrated TV, projector, etc., the DVI doesn't look good as a fully calibrated component input.
That's actually a sign of a poorly designed TV, projector, etc. and indicates DVI was tacked on as an afterthought. A good design would allow all the normal adjustments since we all know just because a source is digital, doesn't mean it's perfect.
 

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Keith,


I absolutely agree! Why Sharp decided to only allow certain adjustments to the DVI input is ridiculous. If DVI had those adjustments, whoa!


Nic
 
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