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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It's been mentioned before that the CMS settings can impact the grayscale tracking; however, I can't see any difference at all when switching between the auto and custom color spaces while displaying a grayscale steps pattern. Any insights on this? I really mean I can't see any difference at all.


My TV is the LN32B650 and I've done a full CMS calibration in the custom color space.
 

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Can you measure a difference?


Maybe 'Auto' use the custom colourspace too?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by atledreier /forum/post/18181148


Can you measure a difference?


Maybe 'Auto' use the custom colourspace too?

Auto is different from Custom. Custom at its defaults is actually identical to Native, which has a wider gamut with brighter colors than Auto (in a excessive, negative sense). After calibration, Custom would be closer to Auto than Native, but it's still far for being identical. I know this because I also performed this test with HD color bars and saw that Auto, Native, and Custom all looked more different than they looked alike.


I didn't bother measuring grayscale both ways because if I can't see anything happening, odds are the only difference I might measure will be due to the short-term repeatability of the meter (aka readings are never exactly the same).
 

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A well-designed CMS should have no effect on the white balance.
 

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whenever I work on Samsungs, I always double check, and rarely need to make any adjustments. sometimes they are so small, that I almost blame the meter for fluctuations
 

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I didn't recheck my greyscale after I'd setup my CMS on my VideoEQ Pro, but I need to redo the calibration at some point due to changing to high lamp to cure flicker. I'll make sure I check afterwards with and without the CMS engaged, but I'd hope it's well designed and avoids effecting greyscale.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdoostil /forum/post/18182917


whenever I work on Samsungs, I always double check, and rarely need to make any adjustments. sometimes they are so small, that I almost blame the meter for fluctuations

With a budget meter like the D2, this is also why I didn't bother measuring the grayscale after calibrating the CMS. Also, I'm glad to hear the Samsungs usually don't need re-adjustment of the grayscale after CMS work.


I guess if I can't see any difference on a grayscale steps pattern, there is no way I'd see a difference in regular program material.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman /forum/post/18182894


A well-designed CMS should have no effect on the white balance.

Is it the Pioneer Kuros that have CMS controls that significantly affect grayscale? I know I've read about at least one CMS implementation where the CMS really makes an noticeable impact on the grayscale.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/18184071


Is it the Pioneer Kuros that have CMS controls that significantly affect grayscale? I know I've read about at least one CMS implementation where the CMS really makes an noticeable impact on the grayscale.

Yes, you should not touch the CMS controls on Pioneer displays.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice /forum/post/18184248


One should not touch the CMS controls on the Pioneer unless they know what they are doing
I (and others) use them all the time.

Even one or two clicks of adjustment lead to uncorrectable errors in the greyscale performance of both the 5080 and KRP-500M I had (European models) that not even the ISF controls could fix. Perhaps the US models are different. (I would be surprised)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee /forum/post/18184337


Even one or two clicks of adjustment lead to uncorrectable errors in the greyscale performance of both the 5080 and KRP-500M I had (European models) that not even the ISF controls could fix. Perhaps the US models are different. (I would be surprised)

Well, I've done hundreds of 9G Pioneers with CMS controls. Not all of them required the use of the controls. However, those that did, I was capable of using the CMS controls with the grayscale controls and not create any uncorrectable grayscale errors. If you could not do the same, then its either you or your displays.
 

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That is one of the tips shared, do not move them more than 2 clicks in any direction.


In any case, there is benefit to using them but you must have a good understanding of it's implementation.


This has come up before, some Professionals do not touch them.. however, several do:

Quote:
one really shouldn't use the Pio's CMS anyway, since even small adjustments will affect grayscale tracking. Despite the set's otherwise exemplary performance, the Pioneer Elite CMS is one of the worst in the business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr /forum/post/0


That is not a true statement in all cases, but for most people it probably is a mistake to use it.
 

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Quote:
whenever I work on Samsungs, I always double check, and rarely need to make any adjustments. sometimes they are so small, that I almost blame the meter for fluctuations

I did a Samsung LED this weekend and did not find CMS altering grayscale at all.

Quote:
Not all of [ELITEs] required the use of [CMS] controls. However, those that did, I was capable of using the CMS controls with the grayscale controls and not create any uncorrectable grayscale errors.

I agree. Although I've found needing them was more true in the past than it is in the present. It can be easy for a novice to run around in circles frustrated if attempting this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw /forum/post/18186961


I did a Samsung LED this weekend and did not find CMS altering grayscale at all.

Once again, I'm happy to hear this. It's good to know CMS calibration doesn't affect grayscale with the Samsungs in many cases.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman /forum/post/18182894


A well-designed CMS should have no effect on the white balance.

That means that in a black and white picture it doesn't matter if we chage any of the x,y,Y values?


Federico
 

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I redid my calibration last night and left my VideoEQ Pro CMS engaged at last week's setting while I redid the greyscale. I then worked on the CMS afterwards to fine tune it (I'd calibrated using SMPTE-C last time and wanted to do a rec709 this time). The greyscale seemed very consistant even after the readjustment of the CMS to change to rec709. I forgot to do greyscale runs with the CMS on and off, but I'll try to remember next time I have the sensor out and I'll post back.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federico /forum/post/18195818


That means that in a black and white picture it doesn't matter if we chage any of the x,y,Y values?

Well, yes. A COLOR management system would have no effect on black and white content. However, the white balance controls will affect black and white content.
 
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