[Tony Jones]

Hi all,

I'm trying to select the optimal crossover frequency for my current 3.1 setup. My center channel is rated down to 88 Hz, while my L/R are rated down to 59 Hz. They are Klipsch RC-10 and RF-10, respectively.

My Onkyo TX-SR313 will only allow me to select a single crossover frequency, rather than on a per-speaker basis. An additional caveat here is that I'm temporarily using a cheap and under-powered Yamaha YST-SW010 subwoofer from an old home-theatre in a box. It's funny, but the low-ends from my Klipsch floor standers are producing much clearer bass than the subwoofer itself.

In anycase, I have a few options here:

Should I do the obvious and select 100 Hz? This hurts me, as I would like to get as much bass out of L/R as possible.

90 Hz also seems reasonable, but then the accuracy of the 88 Hz rating of the center channel comes to question.

80 Hz is nice, but will I be losing much from the center channel? How much dialogue below 90 Hz gets sent to the center anyhow?

Anyways, thanks for your input.

Cheers,

Tony

 

[craig john]

Hi all,

I'm trying to select the optimal crossover frequency for my current 3.1 setup. My center channel is rated down to 88 Hz, while my L/R are rated down to 59 Hz. They are Klipsch RC-10 and RF-10, respectively.

My Onkyo TX-SR313 will only allow me to select a single crossover frequency, rather than on a per-speaker basis. An additional caveat here is that I'm temporarily using a cheap and under-powered Yamaha YST-SW010 subwoofer from an old home-theatre in a box. It's funny, but the low-ends from my Klipsch floor standers are producing much clearer bass than the subwoofer itself.

In anycase, I have a few options here:

Should I do the obvious and select 100 Hz? This hurts me, as I would like to get as much bass out of L/R as possible.

90 Hz also seems reasonable, but then the accuracy of the 88 Hz rating of the center channel comes to question.

80 Hz is nice, but will I be losing much from the center channel? How much dialogue below 90 Hz gets sent to the center anyhow?

Anyways, thanks for your input.

Cheers,

Tony

Set the L/R to "Large" and the CC to "Small" with a 100 or 120 Hz crossover. This will send a full range signal to the L/R's and re-direct the bass below the crossover from the CC to the sub.

Craig

 

[commsysman]

Hi all,

I'm trying to select the optimal crossover frequency for my current 3.1 setup. My center channel is rated down to 88 Hz, while my L/R are rated down to 59 Hz. They are Klipsch RC-10 and RF-10, respectively.

My Onkyo TX-SR313 will only allow me to select a single crossover frequency, rather than on a per-speaker basis. An additional caveat here is that I'm temporarily using a cheap and under-powered Yamaha YST-SW010 subwoofer from an old home-theatre in a box. It's funny, but the low-ends from my Klipsch floor standers are producing much clearer bass than the subwoofer itself.

In anycase, I have a few options here:

Should I do the obvious and select 100 Hz? This hurts me, as I would like to get as much bass out of L/R as possible.

90 Hz also seems reasonable, but then the accuracy of the 88 Hz rating of the center channel comes to question.

80 Hz is nice, but will I be losing much from the center channel? How much dialogue below 90 Hz gets sent to the center anyhow?

Anyways, thanks for your input.

Cheers,

Tony

The center speaker is not capable of reproducing anything below 88 hz, so that is a non-issue; its inherent lack of output below that frequency self-limits it and that is NOT a problem.

"Dialogue" does not exist below 100 hz anyway; there is none.

The telephone company standard band for each telephone channel is from 300 Hz to 3000 hz. They do not support transmission of anything below 300 Hz. This is considered optimal for clear "dialogue" to be clearly heard and understood over the phone. The fundamental voice frequencies are lower than 300 hz, but they do not contribute significantly to intelligibility. The frequencies that make for the clearest audibility are all harmonics and are above 300 hz. This has been proven repeatedly in over 100 years of audio research by Bell Laboratories. They are THE experts on speech and audibility!

You should run your main speakers full-range and toss that cheap "sub-woofer", which is worthless with those main speakers (as you have already observed...lol). Since your center speaker simply cannot reproduce anything significantly below 80 hz, you could run it full-range too; that would not matter.

A true subwoofer needs at least a 12 inch driver and 300 watts or more of RMS (not peak) amplifier power, and typically costs from $600 to $3000.

Anything less is a waste of time and money, unless the front speakers are tiny and have no bass at all.

 

[Tony Jones]

The center speaker is not capable of reproducing anything below 88 hz, so that is a non-issue; its inherent lack of output below that frequency limits it and that is NOT a problem.

"Dialogue" does not exist below 100 hz anyway; there is none.

The telephone company standard band for each telephone channel is from 300 Hz to 3000 hz. They do not support transmission of anything below 300 Hz. This is considered optimal for clear "dialogue" to be clearly heard and understood over the phone. The fundamental voice frequencies are lower than 300 hz, but they do not contribute significantly to intelligibility. The frequencies that make for the clearest audibility are all above 300 hz. This has been proven repeatedly in over 100 years of audio research by Bell Laboratories.

You should run your main speakers full-range and toss that cheap "sub-woofer", which is worthless with those main speakers (as you have already observed...lol). Since your center speaker simply cannot reproduce anything significantly below 80 hz, you could run it full-range too; that would not matter.

A true subwoofer needs at least a 12 inch driver and 300 watts or more of RMS (not peak) amplifier power, and typically costs from $600 to $3000.

Anything less is a waste of time and money, unless the front speakers are tiny and have no bass at all.

In a typical 5.1 source, are there any non-dialogue sounds that may be sent to the center channel? Perhaps ambient noise, sound-effects or music?

 

[Alan P]

The center speaker is not capable of reproducing anything below 88 hz, so that is a non-issue; its inherent lack of output below that frequency self-limits it and that is NOT a problem.

"Dialogue" does not exist below 100 hz anyway; there is none.

The telephone company standard band for each telephone channel is from 300 Hz to 3000 hz. They do not support transmission of anything below 300 Hz. This is considered optimal for clear "dialogue" to be clearly heard and understood over the phone. The fundamental voice frequencies are lower than 300 hz, but they do not contribute significantly to intelligibility. The frequencies that make for the clearest audibility are all harmonics and are above 300 hz. This has been proven repeatedly in over 100 years of audio research by Bell Laboratories. They are THE experts on speech and audibility!

You should run your main speakers full-range and toss that cheap "sub-woofer", which is worthless with those main speakers (as you have already observed...lol). Since your center speaker simply cannot reproduce anything significantly below 80 hz, you could run it full-range too; that would not matter.

A true subwoofer needs at least a 12 inch driver and 300 watts or more of RMS (not peak) amplifier power, and typically costs from $600 to $3000.

Anything less is a waste of time and money, unless the front speakers are tiny and have no bass at all.

This is the second post you made today that has confused me....are you saying my CC doesn't need to extend deeper than 300hz or 100hz??? Also, why (if what you say is accurate) do I get support for deeper male voices in movies from my subwoofer using an 80hz crossover?


I disagree that the phone people are THE experts on speech and audibility....have you heard a cell phone these days???

 

[rhodesj]

In a typical 5.1 source, are there any non-dialogue sounds that may be sent to the center channel? Perhaps ambient noise, sound-effects or music?

Yes, the CC is not limited to voices only, and is a full range channel.

 

[Tony Jones]

Thank you all for your responses.

I have a few more items that need clarification, however.

First, the consensus seems to be not to trust manufacturer-given frequency ranges. Is this true for all manufacturers? i.e., Could a crossover for a speaker that Klipsch rates at 88 Hz not be simply rounded to 90 Hz, rather than tacking on an extra 10 for error and bringing the crossover up to 100 Hz? Is there any literature on the rational behind this?

And on a similar note: what would be a better investment, aside from a new subwoofer of course: a receiver than can specify crossover frequencies for individual speakers or a center channel with a range closer to that of my mains?

Cheers,

-Tony

 

[NorthSky]

Specs for speakers are just a very rough estimate for couple things; weight, dimension, and that's it.

It doesn't say how the speaker truly behave when mated with an amplifier; detailed waterfalls, entire impedance curve across the full audio spectrum, sensitivity in-room response in your own room, behavior of its drivers and crossover and phase and coherence, interaction with your own room's acoustics, etc.

But if you have a woofer of say 5.5 inches, or two of them, inside an enclosure, you can expect them to start dropping @ around 125Hz or so.

* Get a good subwoofer; SVS, HSU. ...Then a center ch. speaker with a tweeter above a midrange in the center flanked by two woofers (3-way design).
Then check your room interaction with them; acoustics.
Then an upper echelon AV receiver with a good Room EQ system and Dolby Atmos/DTS:X audio decoders.

 

[jaddie]

Yes, the CC is not limited to voices only, and is a full range channel.

Not so. The center channel provides between 70 and 85% of the total SPL in the room. Can't pull that off with dialog only.

 

[jaddie]

The center speaker is not capable of reproducing anything below 88 hz, so that is a non-issue; its inherent lack of output below that frequency self-limits it and that is NOT a problem.

"Dialogue" does not exist below 100 hz anyway; there is none.

The telephone company standard band for each telephone channel is from 300 Hz to 3000 hz. They do not support transmission of anything below 300 Hz. This is considered optimal for clear "dialogue" to be clearly heard and understood over the phone. The fundamental voice frequencies are lower than 300 hz, but they do not contribute significantly to intelligibility. The frequencies that make for the clearest audibility are all harmonics and are above 300 hz. This has been proven repeatedly in over 100 years of audio research by Bell Laboratories. They are THE experts on speech and audibility!

Telephone company standards are based on speech intelligibility (audibility is something else) in the context of telecommunications, in which context 300Hz to 3KHz is valid. However, their standards have nothing to do with high fidelity reproduction of speech.

You should run your main speakers full-range and toss that cheap "sub-woofer", which is worthless with those main speakers (as you have already observed...lol). Since your center speaker simply cannot reproduce anything significantly below 80 hz, you could run it full-range too; that would not matter.

A true subwoofer needs at least a 12 inch driver and 300 watts or more of RMS (not peak) amplifier power, and typically costs from $600 to $3000.

Anything less is a waste of time and money, unless the front speakers are tiny and have no bass at all.

The size of the driver and power of the amp really aren't performance metrics. The real question is maximum SPL at 20Hz, and the application of that maximum to a specific room design. Some 10" subs do just fine in smaller rooms, or when applied as two or more.

 

[Skylinestar]

Thank you all for your responses.

I have a few more items that need clarification, however.

First, the consensus seems to be not to trust manufacturer-given frequency ranges. Is this true for all manufacturers? i.e., Could a crossover for a speaker that Klipsch rates at 88 Hz not be simply rounded to 90 Hz, rather than tacking on an extra 10 for error and bringing the crossover up to 100 Hz? Is there any literature on the rational behind this?

And on a similar note: what would be a better investment, aside from a new subwoofer of course: a receiver than can specify crossover frequencies for individual speakers or a center channel with a range closer to that of my mains?

Cheers,

-Tony

Choosing the proper crossover is not as simple as you think. You'll never know unless it's measured (via REW).

You cannot believe the manufacturer crossover rating. Most people choose 20-30Hz higher (and make sure it's >80Hz). I normally go for double or more (can exceed >100Hz), but I do have a pair of front subs to pair them. If Klipsch says 88Hz, I'll probably choose 150Hz.

A better investment will be a new center speaker.

 

[Elihawk]

There is plenty of content below 100hz that passes through a center channell on many 5.1 soundtracks! Dialogue is but one function (a main one, but not the only one) that a center channell will perform.

 

[FMW]

Use an 80hz crossover.

 

[Elihawk]

Think of it this way...the cool thing about surround sound is that the sound is direction. While much of the dynmaic content that is low will be produced by the subwoofer, any directiona sound will move across the speakers as the action moves across the screen. If you center channel cannot handle what you L/R speakers can handle, you will hear that when "special effects" move in a directional manner. Your center should be able to do everything that you L/R speaker can do!
Also, as pointed out, you sub is probably the weak link #1 , with the center being 1b...

 

[djp2k7]

For now I would lose the sub, run the L and R full range, and set your crossover at 100hz for the center. When you can do it I would suggest picking up a Klipsch RC-3 off ebay. You can find them for around $100. Then get a good sub and run your crossover for everything at 80hz.

 

[Alan P]

Yes, the CC is not limited to voices only, and is a full range channel.

Not so. The center channel provides between 70 and 85% of the total SPL in the room. Can't pull that off with dialog only.

Just wanted to point out that you must have mis-read rhodes's post.