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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Using D-Nice's workflow for my 111FD. Calibrating with CalMAN and a Chroma5 on ISF Day. I've been experimenting with the 100IRE level and the RGB Gains and Cuts to just sort of see what happens before I do Color Point and 9 Point Gamma adjustments. I've been seeing something on my display and I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this.


I am attaching two sets of charts. Both are for ISF Day. You can see the major difference between the two if you look at the Gamma chart in the upper left. Notice that for the first one the RGB Tracking is not well matched at all, but the Gamma shows a nice continuous curve, which should be fairly easy to correct without resorting to discontinuous adjustments across the range.


Notice how the second one has drops at 70 and 90IRE. That's what happens on my display during this stage of calibration, when I try to be very careful about matching the RGB levels (using the Gains and Cuts at 80IRE and 20IRE). I tried different maximum luminances at 100IRE, but when I get the RGBs pretty well matched I always get this discontinuity. Have others seen this on their 9Gs? Since I haven't yet done either Color Point adjustment or 9 Point Gamma, what does this tell me?

 

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What is your source for the grey scale pattern? How big is it (percentage of screen)? I am wondering if you are hitting the auto dim when too much of the panel is near white due to too large patterns on the screen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles /forum/post/16928035


Have you tried turning white level down a bunch? It looks like it's just running out of steam. What happens if you hit say 30fL for 100%? I predict that falloff vanishes...

Quite possible Chris. I will try 30fL and see what happens, but I did try to go down to ~35fL and saw a similar characteristic. Has me worried, especially since it has been documented that the 111FD should be able to be successfully calibrated in ISF Day to these higher 100IRE levels. This being the case I'm hoping those who have done it can tell me if this looks typical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voyager6 /forum/post/16928308


What is your source for the grey scale pattern? How big is it (percentage of screen)? I am wondering if you are hitting the auto dim when too much of the panel is near white due to too large patterns on the screen.

Tom Huffman's patterns. They are about the smallest which are readily available. I can also keep raising the contrast and run these up to beyond 50fL if I wanted to, so it looks like it's not the ABL.
 

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I agree with Voyager6. I had the same problem when I used windows that were too big. My generator used quarter area windows by default which caused the same problem. When it happened it didn't hit a hard ceiling; it just rounded the gamma curve. It took me a while to figure it out, but these sets need small windows for measuring.

I don't know what Tom's windows look like, though.
 

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With phosphor-based or power-limited displays, you should be using 1% area squares for accurate measurementsthis is both from my own findings, and on the EBU's recommendation.


With the Pioneer televisions, rather than monitors (which are fairly linear to 50%) the maximum pattern size you should use is about 15%. Most discs I've seen have window patterns that are 20% or larger.




The LX5090 is the European equivalent of the 111FD. ES0, 1, 2 are the energy saving modes.



With the Pioneer plasmas, you also have to be careful not to leave the same pattern on the screen for much longer than it takes to make a reading, as they automatically dim the screen if they detect a static image.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee /forum/post/16929371




With the Pioneer plasmas, you also have to be careful not to leave the same pattern on the screen for much longer than it takes to make a reading, as they automatically dim the screen if they detect a static image.

Are you posting about HMG on the models that have it? The Pioneers will not auto dim the display with the Digital Inputs set as Video. I've left a windowed pattern up for a long time (w/ES0)....


The Monitors are also targeted at commercial environments where static images are expected...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee /forum/post/16929371


The LX5090 is the European equivalent of the 111FD.

Not even close to being correct. The closest EU model that is comparable to the 111FD is the KRP models and even they are not the same.


Quote:
With the Pioneer plasmas, you also have to be careful not to leave the same pattern on the screen for much longer than it takes to make a reading, as they automatically dim the screen if they detect a static image.

This does not happen with any NA Kuro unless you are using the PC Video mode or HMG.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe /forum/post/16930146


Are you posting about HMG on the models that have it? The Pioneers will not auto dim the display with the Digital Inputs set as Video. I've left a windowed pattern up for a long time (w/ES0)....


The Monitors are also targeted at commercial environments where static images are expected...

From the LX5090 manual. (happened to have it on my PC as a friend is getting one soon)
Flat screen TV protection function

When still images (such as photos and computer images) stay on the screen for an extended period of time, the screen will be slightly dimmed. This is because the protection function of the flat screen TV automatically adjusts the brightness to protect the screen when detecting still images; so this does not designate malfunction. The screen is dimmed when a still image is detected for about three minutes.


This is not related to HMG and was a big annoyance of mine when calibrating my KRP-500M. (I didn't realise the manual specified that it happens after three minutes though)


It was also noticeable with the 5080XD I had a couple of years back, but I didn't realise that's what was causing it. (I was wondering why it would sometimes need ≈24 contrast and sometimes need ≈30 contrast to hit my luminance target)


EDIT: I've just checked the 111FD manual, and it's in there too. I'm pretty sure it's there on all Kuros.
 

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Tony,


I'm not sure exactly how many other ways I can explain to you that your 2009 111FD ISFccc mode gamma is NOT linear OOTB. Use the controls to fix your gamma.


BTW, there is nothing wrong with the patterns you are using. I advised you to use Tom's patterns explicitly because that are small enough not to trigger the ABL circuit in your panel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyptony /forum/post/16927828


Using D-Nice's workflow for my 111FD. Calibrating with CalMAN and a Chroma5 on ISF Day. I've been experimenting with the 100IRE level and the RGB Gains and Cuts to just sort of see what happens before I do Color Point and 9 Point Gamma adjustments. I've been seeing something on my display and I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this.


I am attaching two sets of charts. Both are for ISF Day. You can see the major difference between the two if you look at the Gamma chart in the upper left. Notice that for the first one the RGB Tracking is not well matched at all, but the Gamma shows a nice continuous curve, which should be fairly easy to correct without resorting to discontinuous adjustments across the range.


Notice how the second one has drops at 70 and 90IRE. That's what happens on my display during this stage of calibration, when I try to be very careful about matching the RGB levels (using the Gains and Cuts at 80IRE and 20IRE). I tried different maximum luminances at 100IRE, but when I get the RGBs pretty well matched I always get this discontinuity. Have others seen this on their 9Gs? Since I haven't yet done either Color Point adjustment or 9 Point Gamma, what does this tell me?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee /forum/post/16930462


This is not related to HMG and was a big annoyance of mine when calibrating my KRP-500M. (I didn't realise the manual specified that it happens after three minutes though)

Really? I leave test patterns on my KRP-500M up to 20 minutes sometimes. Not once has the panel dimmed. Case and point as to why people should not reference NA Pioneer models to EU models.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice /forum/post/16930503


Really? I leave test patterns on my KRP-500M up to 20 minutes sometimes. Not once has the panel dimmed. Case and point as to why people should not reference NA Pioneer models to EU models.

Is it possible it's just not something you've noticed/checked for? Certainly I would not have expected it to happen and from what I remember it was a gradual process the longer it was left up rather than instantly dropping in brightness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice /forum/post/16930511


I've given you 2 instances where your "dimming" comments are valid on the 111FD.... PC video mode and the HMG.

On the 5080XD it might have been in PC mode, as that was the only way to get rid of overscan (it was not a 1080p model) though I don't think it was.


On the KRP it definitely was not in PC mode when it was dimming, and it even happened whilst in the ISF interface. If it doesn't happen with the NA models then that's great, though I'm not sure why they mention it in the manual if that's the case.



And please take a look at the graph I posted above. While I didn't measure the intermediate steps from 1-5%, pretty much anything larger than a 1% area window starts to dim the image on the Pioneers. It only starts to get drastic past 20% or so however. (but even with a 15/20% area pattern, you've already lost ≈10% brightness)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee /forum/post/16930598


Is it possible it's just not something you've noticed/checked for? Certainly I would not have expected it to happen and from what I remember it was a gradual process the longer it was left up rather than instantly dropping in brightness.

I'm not sure how I could miss something like this with the amount of hours I send using my 2 111FDs, 500M, 1150HD... let alone the 200+ other Kuros I've come into contact with



Quote:
On the 5080XD it might have been in PC mode, as that was the only way to get rid of overscan (it was not a 1080p model) though I don't think it was.

Doesn't happen on my 1150HD beyond what I have already pointed out.

Quote:
On the KRP it definitely was not in PC mode when it was dimming, and it even happened whilst in the ISF interface. If it doesn't happen with the NA models then that's great, though I'm not sure why they mention it in the manual if that's the case.

What were you using as the source? Since you stated this has happened to you while in the ISFccc interface, can you provide details for when this anomaly happened?


Quote:
And please take a look at the graph I posted above. While I didn't measure the intermediate steps from 1-5%, pretty much anything larger than a 1% area window starts to dim the image on the Pioneers. It only starts to get drastic past 20% or so however. (but even with a 15/20% area pattern, you've already lost ≈10% brightness)

Been there done that. I have zero issues with pattern sizes per an Accupel 3000, Sencore VP403, AVS709 pattern disc, Tom Huffman's patterns, DVE BD, etc, etc. I do see APL issues when using GetGray as a pattern source. The patterns on that disc are definitely too big for use with the 9G Kuros.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee /forum/post/16930462


From the LX5090 manual. (happened to have it on my PC as a friend is getting one soon)

Flat screen TV protection function

When still images (such as photos and computer images) stay on the screen for an extended period of time, the screen will be slightly dimmed. This is because the protection function of the flat screen TV automatically adjusts the brightness to protect the screen when detecting still images; so this does not designate malfunction. The screen is dimmed when a still image is detected for about three minutes. ”


This is not related to HMG and was a big annoyance of mine when calibrating my KRP-500M. (I didn't realise the manual specified that it happens after three minutes though)


It was also noticeable with the 5080XD I had a couple of years back, but I didn't realise that's what was causing it. (I was wondering why it would sometimes need ≈24 contrast and sometimes need ≈30 contrast to hit my luminance target)


EDIT: I've just checked the 111FD manual, and it's in there too. I'm pretty sure it's there on all Kuros.

I have seen that in some of the manuals.. I know it doesn't happen on my PRO-141FD (I don't see that text in the Signature Manuals either) and I don't remember this happening on my KRP-500M (my PRO-141FD gets much more attention though
). I've literally have had a pattern up on the 141FD and got on the phone for 15-20 minutes and continued from where I left off, no issues.


The Signature Monitors were targeted at Commercial installations including for broadcast where static images would be displayed, this is the reason these Models have the Studio Mode (to compensate when the Plasma is in the 'scene').


Several Pros have high-end meters (spectros) that can take longer than 3 minutes to get the reading on the low end as well..

EDIT: I don't see the text in the KRP-500M Manual either (as in the Signature Manuals)
 

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Yes, I was going to post that this sounds similar to what happens when ES>0...


I don't use Energy Save Mode ( posted above : "w/ES0").



On a side note: Hi mlaun, long time...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice /forum/post/16930670


What were you using as the source? Since you stated this has happened to you while in the ISFccc interface, can you provide details for when this anomaly happened?

That will have primarily been with a Playstation 3 at the time. This was probably 9/10 months back now so I'm not sure there's much more useful information I can provide, other than that I noticed the brightness was dimming over time if it was left on one pattern.


I wasn't sure on how the display was detecting this (if it was a motion-based thing perhaps) or how long it took (I had read about it a while before getting the display, rather than reading it at the time so I couldn't remember) so what I did was insert a fullscreen image (I'm guessing it would have been 50% grey) in between each pattern that I switched to each time I was making adjustments, and then went back to the pattern to take the next reading as that ensured it didn't happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe /forum/post/16930786


I don't see the text in the KRP-500M Manual either (as in the Signature Manuals)

It's definitely in there

 
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