[MOberhardt]

Yep - that's spot on. I'd set min luminance to 0.0001 just as belt and braces, but it wouldn't make any perceptible difference to the picture.

What about the max luminance there? Is 1000 too high for a projector? Or isn't that going to affect things?

 

[markswift2003]

What about the max luminance there? Is 1000 too high for a projector? Or isn't that going to affect things?

Max and Min Luminance actually only refer to the spec of the mastering monitor in a genuine HDR message, it's MaxCLL and MaxFALL that are the important ones (if the display uses them - not all do).

For any display (and especially a projector that may struggle with 100nits) it's only a target that then defines the tone map as the PQ curve rolls off at the top beyond diffuse white.

Bottom line, if you either have a well designed custom curve or a projector that tone maps correctly it's not a problem and is the ideal value for LLDV.

The 400nits MaxFALL is a bit of stick your finger in the air value, arguably it should be lower, but it seems to work ok.

 

[claw]

What about the max luminance there? Is 1000 too high for a projector? Or isn't that going to affect things?

For JVC e-shift projectors it doesn't matter what luminance values you send in the HDR metadata. They are not used by their fixed HDR Gamma curves.

For the newer JVC projector models with HDR tone mapping modes that may look at metadata values, I would match both Max Luminance and MaxCLL to the DV data block (or EDID 5/10) value for Max Luminance which is what appears to have been done in that settings screenshot.

 

[Dreamliner]

Looking at trying LLDV with my RS400 as I'm hearing the wonky color issue has been solved and it's better than SDR2020, plus it works for streaming (please correct me if any of this is wrong).

For Discs: My understanding is the best way to do this is with a Vertex2 & Sony UBP-X800M2, is that correct? I have a UB420 now, is ADDING a X800M2 better than SWITCHING to a UB820?

For Streaming: I have a 2017 Nvidia Shield (P2897), will that work or do I need the ATV or a new Shield?

Thanks Gents!

 

[vestaviascott]

To get LLDV capable source players to send LLDV when connected to an Arcana, set the following options in the Arcana OLED menu:

LLDV->HDR:
*On

HDR:
*LLDV sync

The LLDV sync HDR option will sync the HDR metadata MaxCLL luminance value to the LLDV->HDR max luminance value.

Thanks for this Claw. I can't get consistent video sync with my projector when changing from Netflix HDR to Netflix Dolby Vision, etc. The signal drops and won't come back without reboot of the Apple TV then its very slow to switch modes and eventually hangs. I have a Fiber HDMI cable connecting the Arcana Out to the Projector so that's not the issue.

Apparently I have an HDMI cable issue with the cable connecting the ATV4K to the Arcana. I've tried several "(standard) High Speed" hdmi cables there but none fix the issue. I've ordered a couple of "Premium 8K HDMI cables to try", one a 3 foot optical HDMI cable and the other a 6 foot copper 8K hdmi cable. Apparently if you are using anything other than optical, the length has to be minimum 6 feet and maximum 12 feet. For anything shorter or anything longer you have to go with optical HDMI cables to enable the 600mhz dolby vision output.

PS: The minimum 6 foot requirement is apparently due to an issue with the EMI that foobars the HDMI handshake. Apparently fiber doesn't have this issue (at lengths shorter than 6 feet) but I'm not certain of that until I test the 3 foot optical cable I have on order.

 

[vestaviascott]

Will the Arcana handle this the same way as all these other Fury's?
I have the Diva to the pj and wanted a cheaper version for the samsung tv in the livingroom

Now that I have had the Arcana hooked up and tested, it does appear so, with the exception there may be a few less options you can tweak on the Arcana vs one of the more expensive HDFury devices.

Ultimately, the key functions we are seeking, it delivers: (1) Dolby Atmos export to Sonos Arc (2) Dolby Vision export to projectors (and other non DV HDR capable displays)

Apparently though, the Dolby Vision export requires very Premium HDMI cables. Minimum 18Gbps, preferably optical - this would apply to ALL hdfury devices that pass LLDV > HDR.

PS: If you aren't using optical HDMI cables, your cables must be between 6-12 feet, no shorter and no longer. I have a half dozen HDMI cables that are mostly obsolete now with all this DV goodness.

 

[Mikethespike]

Now that I have had the Arcana hooked up and tested, it does appear so, with the exception there may be a few less options you can tweak on the Arcana vs one of the more expensive HDFury devices.

Ultimately, the key functions we are seeking, it delivers: (1) Dolby Atmos export to Sonos Arc (2) Dolby Vision export to projectors (and other non DV HDR capable displays)

Apparently though, the Dolby Vision export requires very Premium HDMI cables. Minimum 18Gbps, preferably optical - this would apply to ALL hdfury devices that pass LLDV > HDR.

PS: If you aren't using optical HDMI cables, your cables must be between 6-12 feet, no shorter and no longer. I have a half dozen HDMI cables that are mostly obsolete now with all this DV goodness.

Thanks.
Referring to your HDMI findings. I had problems before running a 10meter standard 18gbps from NAD to PJ. But with hdfury Diva in the chain it is working perfectly. So my experience is different from yours regarding this (running 4k50hz 4:2:2)

 

[vestaviascott]

@claw I've heard that there is an EMI interference issue with HDMI cables lengths shorter than 6 feet when working with Arcana - apparently affects the handshake. If true, does this apply to all connections on the Arcana (input and output)? Does it also apply when using optical HDMI cables?

At this point, I'm only considering "Certified Premium" badged HDMI cables of the shortest length I can get away with and I'm obviously seeking to maximum output and miminize the amount of time it takes to complete handshakes each time the HDR range changes. Currently, some changes are faster than others but I'm getting a few where I have to reset the Apple TV to resolve, or wait longer than a minute to recover video sync.

 

[nathan_h]

Looking at trying LLDV with my RS400 as I'm hearing the wonky color issue has been solved and it's better than SDR2020, plus it works for streaming (please correct me if any of this is wrong).

For Discs: My understanding is the best way to do this is with a Vertex2 & Sony UBP-X800M2, is that correct? I have a UB420 now, is ADDING a X800M2 better than SWITCHING to a UB820?

For Streaming: I have a 2017 Nvidia Shield (P2897), will that work or do I need the ATV or a new Shield?

Thanks Gents!

First things first.

Using LLDV with the RS400 assumes/requires that you have a good custom HDR curve on the RS400 ideally optimized for a 1000nit mastered signal.

And while opinions and experience will vary, I think that folks who considered HDR10 to be too dim when using a custom curve will likely not think that LLDV solves that.

Second things second.

For playback devices, you may just want to run a quick search through this thread to read the pros and cons of devices in use. It's hard to predict which limitations are going to matter to each person. Luckily, most have been discussed over time.

There has been some hit or miss comments on the Panasonics used this way. The Sony seems consistently reliable for everyone.

Certainly the ATV4K is a popular, successful choice for streaming and can do things the Shield can't like "convert" HDR10 into LLDV or even SDR content in LLDV, IIRC (though whether one should or would want to do that is a thing one can debate) whereas the current Shield has some limitations (ie, only native DV content can be output as LLDV when last I looked) and maybe the 2017 version hasn't been confirmed at all, I don't recall.

 

[Dreamliner]

When I used HDR curves I noticed results were inconsistent. Some titles looked great, others not so much and yes, I had disastrously dark titles (Ghost in the Shell, etc). Switching to SDR2020 resulted in rock solid consistency with 100% problem free playback. Will LLDV be subject to the same consistency issues? I feel like I may have opened a can of worms...

 

[lizrussspike]

A great question for @claw and @Dominic Chan as they have a JVC like yours. I have a DIVA with my JVC and enjoy LLDV, as I mostly just watch 4K material anyway, and leave the sports and stuff to other TV. For me it is almost set and forget, but I did have some learning/growing pains that the folks here helped me thru.

 

[claw]

When I used HDR curves I noticed results were inconsistent. Some titles looked great, others not so much and yes, I had disastrously dark titles (Ghost in the Shell, etc). Switching to SDR2020 resulted in rock solid consistency with 100% problem free playback. Will LLDV be subject to the same consistency issues? I feel like I may have opened a can of worms...

I can't comment on discs since I use LLDV exclusively for streaming service content. Most of the streaming content I view is already Dolby Vision (Apple TV+, Netflix, Disney+) so LLDV makes the most sense. For discs, I use a MadVR PC and output SDR BT2020.

 

[nathan_h]

When I used HDR curves I noticed results were inconsistent. Some titles looked great, others not so much and yes, I had disastrously dark titles (Ghost in the Shell, etc). Switching to SDR2020 resulted in rock solid consistency with 100% problem free playback. Will LLDV be subject to the same consistency issues? I feel like I may have opened a can of worms...

Short answer is....yes.

Long answer....LLDV helps optimize HDR content, but its a 10% improvement over HDR10 and still highly dependent on having a good HDR gamma curve on the display device and on having well mastered content.

 

[jorgebetancourt]

When I used HDR curves I noticed results were inconsistent. Some titles looked great, others not so much and yes, I had disastrously dark titles (Ghost in the Shell, etc). Switching to SDR2020 resulted in rock solid consistency with 100% problem free playback. Will LLDV be subject to the same consistency issues? I feel like I may have opened a can of worms...

LLDV is the best thing since slice bread.. Stuff looks crazy over static custom curves..
DV disc even crazier..

This is last night streaming lord of the rings part 3 on a 640 and appletv..

Hopefully the images upload correctly been having problems with my new phone..


Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

 

[nathan_h]

IIRC dreamliner is using a JVC projector that requires a custom HDR curve for any HDR input. (It was the generation where the factory curve was "broken".)

 

[Dreamliner]

IIRC dreamliner is using a JVC projector that requires a custom HDR curve for any HDR input. (It was the generation where the factory curve was "broken".)

Yes. I have an RS400, CA813 & Spyder 5. I have tried many different premade curves from JAVS, Manni and others. I even used test images and Arve to make a custom curve when I was still getting HDR titles all over the board. The only thing that stabilized the 4K/HDR discs was SDR2020 from the Panasonic. I have a 136" 2.35:1 screen and run SDR2020 in low lamp with Iris at 0. I've never even desired to use high lamp unless I was using 3D. I put 4500 hours on my original lamp without a single peep of brightness issues with SDR2020. As most of you well know though, I was very vocal about HDR brightness issues from day 1...

I have all this stuff coming to me now anyway. I already have the X800M2 & ATV4K and the Vertex2 is on the way. I will follow whatever instructions you guys lay out to get this right. If you could please tell/direct me to instructions for (current) methods of setting up LLDV with my gear. Also what the best premade HDR curve is and/or the best (current) method of setting up a custom curve. Last time I went searching I ended up spending days following outdated instructions. Happy to follow, just show me the path.

 

[nathan_h]

dreamliner

These are examples, not definitive choices, to describe what's going on:

Basically, the Vertex tells the source device (like the ATV4K) that the display is Dolby Vision capable AND requires the source to due the dynamic decoding of the DV metadata. The Vertex lets you tell the source device "Hey, send me content optimized for a 1000 nit display" and or other characteristics.

Then the source sends an HDR10 signal that has been optimized by the player for the characteristics you have defined.

Most folks have the Vertex tell the source device to send an HDR10 signal optimized for a display that reach 1000 nit peaks. (I can't tell you how to set your Vertex for that since I have an older model. But I think at this point it is pretty much two or three check boxes in the Vertex setup.)

----

Then, on the display side, either you have a built in HDR10 curve already (most projectors these days do), or you have a custom one, that is designed to accept and display content mastered for a 1000 nit capable display. Some displays have a slider that let you dial in the right custom curve to mimic a 1000 nit display. (Your JVC and mine do not so we have to build a custom curve, just like in the old days with the Arve tool, or download someone else's that is "close enough".) And then, in theory (and in practice for most people) you are getting the best possible viewing experience from an HDR signal. The display is optimized for a 1000 nit signal. And the player is processing on the fly to optimize the output for a 1000 nit capable display.

I don't know that the process for creating a custom HDR10 curve for a JVC400 has changed from when you explored it before, but I'd guess maybe checking with other users in the owners thread would be a good way to find out. The good news is that you should only need one curve (that matches the settings you used in the Vertex.)

----

As I say, there are lots of nuances one can delve into but that is the general system.

 

[BillyClyde1115]

Then the source sends an HDR10 signal that has been optimized by the player for the characteristics you have defined.

Most folks have the Vertex tell the source device to send an HDR10 signal optimized for a display that reach 1000 nit peaks.

----

And then, in theory (and in practice for most people) you are getting the best possible viewing experience from an HDR signal.

As I understand it, the source doesn’t send an HDR10 signal. The source sends a Dolby Vision LLDV Profile 5 signal just as it would for any other LLDV capable display, DTM and all.

It is just the hdfury which adds the hdr metadata to the signal to make sure your projector goes into hdr mode so it displays right.

I think @claw or @Dominic Chan can confirm my understanding of it.

 

[lizrussspike]

@jorgebetancourt that is a beautiful shot from that 640!!

 

[nathan_h]

As I understand it, the source doesn’t send an HDR10 signal. The source sends a Dolby Vision LLDV Profile 5 signal just as it would for any other LLDV capable display, DTM and all.

It is just the hdfury which adds the hdr metadata to the signal to make sure your projector goes into hdr mode so it displays right.

I think @claw or @Dominic Chan can confirm my understanding of it.

Hi,

I'm not an expert with how other displays work, but the JVC like the OP has has some unique characteristics. (I guess that reads like I'm an expert in the JVC. Not so much, but it is the one I am most familiar with.)

For example, with the 400/500/600 series of JVC projectors its even stranger. These projectors have a broken HDR gamma from the factory. So to do this trick, the signal has to have no HDR meta data at all. (Though it is HDR content that has been tone mapped in the player since it thinks it is sending HDR content to a LLDV display and doesn't know that the Vertext is stripping all the HDR meta data off it so as not to trigger the faulty HDR mode on the JVC.)

That is, the Vertex has to be configured to send a signal that has no HDR meta data at all. While at the same time, the Vertex has to tell the source device that the display requires LLDV....so that the Source dynamically tone maps the DV content to the specs it is being told the display can handle.

Then we have to manually select a custom HDR gamma on the JVC, since the built in HDR gamma is broken. This can be automated by the Vertex (over a serial connection on my model) but doesn't work if there is any HDR meta data in the video signal.

How fun is that!