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Discussion Starter #1
Please correct me if I'm wrong but when double bass is set to "on" on amps like the onkyo and denon then the system is bass managed and the very low frequencies are still sent to the subwoofers and you can have the advantage of having the front speakers set to full band?
 

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The double bass feature redirects the bass from the front left and right speakers to the subwoofer. The best thing to do is to turn it off and set all of your speakers to "100-120hz" in the receivers setup menu. Then in the receivers menu set the LFE to "100-120hz". Now, on the back of the subwoofer itself turn the crossover dial to it's highest point. If you can set it between 50hz to 150hz then set it to 150hz. That way you are only using the crossover in the receiver. If your sub has a switch that says "internal" or "direct", be sure to set it to "direct".


If you run one or more subs, you never want your speakers set to full. If you want more bass from your mains, you can lower the crossover to say, 60hz or 80hz, depening on speakers and sub.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
So the main speakers won't be handling all the bass in its own channel, it will be redirected to the sub?
 

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Everything from the crossover point down will go to the sub. Everything above will go to the mains.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes, but if I have main speakers and double bass, doesn't that mean the mains will be handling full range? So the sub won't be redirecting bass from the mains? It will be copying bass from the mains? Isn't that correct?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS  /t/1466501/double-bass-and-bass-management#post_23158830


Yes, but if I have main speakers and double bass, doesn't that mean the mains will be handling full range? So the sub won't be redirecting bass from the mains? It will be copying bass from the mains? Isn't that correct?
The answer to the first question is Yes. After that it gets confusing. The sub does not direct anything. The AVR does. And what frequencies are directed where depends on how you set up the speakers AND crossovers.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Alright I read a little and apparently double bass is just sending redundant bass information from the main channels to the subwoofer. So there is no bass management going on as far as I understand it. If all channels are set to Large with double bass then the sub is just reproducing the bass that is already in the main channels. It is a copy of the same signal.


Where does the bass management come from?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs  /t/1466501/double-bass-and-bass-management#post_23158905


now i suppose the question is does it ever make sense to copy the sub bass in both the sub(s) and the mains?
Yes.
 

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I can't remember where I read it, but someone said that the double bass feature was more or less for people who can't stand to think of their floor speakers being "small" and would rather call them "big".


You want your AVR to manage your bass, decide the cross over point, and direct the LFE signal to the appropriate speaker (the SUB).


Personally, I don't see the point of sending a duplicate bass signal to the mains and the sub, in fact I just wouldn't ever do it. LFE is tricky and you are more likely to muddy your bass and affect room modes and create nulls than you are to help it in any way. JMHO.


Depending on your speakers, your mains may play a cleaner 60hz than your sub, in that case, if it sounds better for you having your mains play it, adjust the crossover to 60hz, (or wherever the sub starts playing cleaner bass to your ears). This is usually 60-120 hz, YMMV.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by McStyvie  /t/1466501/double-bass-and-bass-management#post_23159077


Personally, I don't see the point of sending a duplicate bass signal to the mains and the sub, in fact I just wouldn't ever do it. LFE is tricky and you are more likely to muddy your bass and affect room modes and create nulls than you are to help it in any way. JMHO.

Actually, based on many personal room measurements, your above is fact, not opinion.


Quote:
Depending on your speakers, your mains may play a cleaner 60hz than your sub, in that case, if it sounds better for you having your mains play it, adjust the crossover to 60hz, (or wherever the sub starts playing cleaner bass to your ears). This is usually 60-120 hz, YMMV.

Currently, our mains and center channel are crossed over at 40Hz and the surrounds are crossed over at 60Hz (mains large, center channel and surrounds, small, LFE+Mains @ 120Hz) all settings have been verified by countless room readings to provide the strongest/tightest measurement. No room treatments allowed.


If a few days, a third sub will arrive and I'll play with this third sub to see how a third sub impacts a particular life sucking, 80Hz null I can't get rid of.



So far, where the rubber meets the road, the only things I've found that aren't out to lunch are, Audyssey, DSPeaker, (Anti-Mode), REW and a way cool sound level meter I found that didn't come from Radio Shack. Everything else is subjective personal opinion or blarney and if one likes going crazy, needs to be taken with a grain of salt.



I've found, part of the bass management problem lies in the fact that most don't understand the purpose of LFE and that it's an "effect" not a constant source sound. If one approaches the LFE channel from the view that it's suppose to be heard 24/7, then the LFE channel is not being set up properly. Then there's this whole "reference" thingy that's not being held to real world standards and I find the use of which is being abused as opposed to being respected and not used for it's intent, headroom for momentary "effect."


The point of the above babbling, it was very gratifying to read what you posted in your above, or if you will, your words were the proverbial breath of fresh air.



-
 

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Sending a duplicate signal to bass and subs can help with localization and give you a smoother response. But not an entirely duplicate signal. Only overlapping ones.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Isn't "double bass" a complete duplicate bass signal (from the mains) to the sub? I thought it would was.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS  /t/1466501/double-bass-and-bass-management#post_23159208


Isn't "double bass" a complete duplicate bass signal (from the mains) to the sub? I thought it would was.

Yes, AFAIK. So, theoretically, bass in the frequencies where the mains' and sub's outputs overlap is "too hot" since you are reproducing the original levels twice, and the bass the sub reproduces below the mains' rolloff point is quieter than the bass in the overlap region. SO while you get a bass boost (which folks may well like) in the overlap region, you don't have the same boost at lower frequencies and impact (especially compared to the boosted frequencies) is lost.


I sure wish the manufacturers would use the correct label (something like "engage bass management") instead of "small" so folks wouldn't feel like they were betraying their speakers to use appropriate bass management.
 

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Discussion Starter #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz 

Yes, AFAIK. So, theoretically, bass in the frequencies where the mains' and sub's outputs overlap is "too hot" since you are reproducing the original levels twice, and the bass the sub reproduces below the mains' rolloff point is quieter than the bass in the overlap region. SO while you get a bass boost (which folks may well like) in the overlap region, you don't have the same boost at lower frequencies and impact (especially compared to the boosted frequencies) is lost.

Okay, so then please correct me if I'm wrong. Double bass is not any form of bass management? If it is set to on, the main speakers are full range, so no crossovers are used, and the sub is handling the same information as the mains? Bass management is only when speakers are set to small?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS  /t/1466501/double-bass-and-bass-management#post_23160125


Okay, so then please correct me if I'm wrong. Double bass is not any form of bass management? If it is set to on, the main speakers are full range, so no crossovers are used, and the sub is handling the same information as the mains? Bass management is only when speakers are set to small?

No. When you use double bass (i.e. LFE+Main), bass management is still in effect for the subwoofer. If your crossover is set to 80hz, the sub is getting nothing above that crossover point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458  /t/1466501/double-bass-and-bass-management#post_23159110


Actually, based on many personal room measurements, your above is fact, not opinion.


Currently, our mains and center channel are crossed over at 40Hz and the surrounds are crossed over at 60Hz (mains large, center channel and surrounds, small, LFE+Mains @ 120Hz) all settings have been verified by countless room readings to provide the strongest/tightest measurement. No room treatments allowed.-

What are you saying Beeman?? You agree with McStyvie when he says to never use double bass, but then you say you are using double bass...??




Personally, I have measured my room with double bass on and off. It measures better with double bass on, and sounds much better to my ears. I'm gonna keep my double bass on, I don't care what anyone says!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P  /t/1466501/double-bass-and-bass-management#post_23160285



What are you saying Beeman?? You agree with McStyvie when he says to never use double bass, but then you say you are using double bass...??

This should be fun. I see some new definitions coming....
 

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Discussion Starter #19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P 

When you use double bass (i.e. LFE+Main), bass management is still in effect for the subwoofer. If your crossover is set to 80hz, the sub is getting nothing above that crossover point.

But if you set speakers to large and double bass then you can't select a crossover. So how can there be bass management? I don't understand.
 

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For 2.0 music I run my sub very hot and I have the avr xover at 100. Sub xover at 105. And with the built in eq of the avr I boost the towers +4 at 100Hz and set the towers to large. This gives me significant bass from the towers and removes localization and provides a smoother response as well as helps to avoid nulls or valleys in the room.
 
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