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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've taken a few hours to test these out for 3D workflow. Already I see some issues that I can't decide if it's the limits of the apps or if I just don't know what I'm doing, which could be very likely given only the few hours I've had with both of these.


First on both of these there doesn't seem to be a way to adjust the overall bit rate on the burn to disc feature just whatever the presets are. On PD12, I forget what the bit rate was for the 1920x1080 24p settings for 3d but the 1920x108060i was maxed at 28 which should be sufficient, however when going from p to i it looked horrendously pixelated. I don't know if that's just the preview as I haven't burned to disc yet. I did a media only output at 1920x1080p and it resembled the original source file so potentially it could be better. This was for 2D. Also on PD12, I'm a little confused why there is not option to have multiple audio tracks with different channel settings. It's either 5.1 or 2.0 for the entire disc. Also either DTS 5.1 or DD, not both. If you're main feature was 5.1 and you had some extra content in 2.0 this wouldn't work. Not sure why you can't manufacture your audio tracks in the edit screen and have them that way on disc, or maybe you can and I just haven't seen it yet. But if you do make your own 5.1 tracks will the burn to disc feature override?


So I downloaded Vegas Pro 12 trial and was hoping for better. To my surprise and I really hope I just haven't figured out how to do it yet, the options are even more limited. I imported both a MVC 3D file and a 2D file and worked with them separately to see what the output options were and both would only let me burn to disc as 1920x1080 at a mere 16 mbps max. There doesn't appear to be any higher presets nor any way to manually set the bit rate. Am I not looking in the right place? There doesn't appear to be a 3D menu option at first glance here where the PD12 has it built in.
 

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Check out Sony Movie Studio 13 Platinum. It burns full 3D HD at1920x1080 24hz 25mbps on bluray or AVCHD. Studio 13 is a Vegas clone with a simpler interface, but is the only program I've used that appears to actually burn a good natural looking 3D bluray using SBS 60i video and MPO files. I could not get PD12 to work, and I've seen that funky pixilation you described. The downside of all this is the video looks very choppy in 3D when panning, but less so when creating a 2D from a 3D video. Stills from a MPO file look great, though. I guess that's just the nature of the beast--I've learned to not pan 3D video, and if I do, it's painfully slow to avoid the judder. I spent weeks trying all the 3D programs to see if I could find one that reduced the judder, but alas, I could not. Studio 13 was the only one that looked halfway decent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Is Movie Studio Pro 13 for Blu ray? It say DVD. I read thru Vegas Pro 12 again and it states it has variable bit rates up to 40 mbps, but I'm not seeing that option on the app. I'm wondering if this is just a trial limitation? I can't believe the max bit rate is 16 mbps. Anyone know if Vegas Pro does 3D menus?


My workflow will be for both MVC AVCHD files from HDC Z10000 and left/right individual files from a AG-3DA1, out put needs to be at least 24 mbps - 28 mbps for 3D Blu ray MVC. I'm not interested in SBS or top bottom. I've never liked the way it looks on TV, just from Blu ray.


I'm hoping the pixelation on PD12 is just the preview and not on the actual output. Even so, I've never seen a preview quite that bad and why it would be pixelated like that at all, even for a preview. Also, I can't understand why there isn't a manual bit rate for output on these two. With video, bit rate is everything and a manual adjust I would expect to be a mandatory feature. I'm hoping this is just because it's a trial version.
 

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Here are the comparisons: http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/moviestudiope/compare . MS 13 Platinum definitely does both DVD and Bluray. Since it's newer than Vegas Pro 12, it might have better specs for bluray. If you are pulling in SBS video, you need to select full frame stereo for the video to burn frame-packed in my experience. You can preview in Anaglyph. You can also sync up left and right individual files--which I haven't tried.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Do either of these do menus? I just got back into Vegas Pro 12 and it doesn't have any options for creating a menu just to burn it to disc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Ok, I tried the DVD Architect, it lets you adjust bit rate there. Also tried Movie Studio, way more scaled down than Vegas 12, it's like iMovie compared to FCP. When I tried Vegas 12 I didn't download the DVD Architect so that likely explains why I didn't see a build menu option. Between the two it looks like Vegas Pro is way more involved than Movie Studio. Movie Studio doesn't have near as much work flow adjustments. I didn't see any way in DVD Architect to make 3D menus but I haven't tried the Pro yet. I'll get it today and try it out.


I started looking at DoStudio, this isn't really in the budget right now but got me wondering how DVD Architect is outputting 3D. DoStudio claims to offer full HD 3D for both frames, so DVD Architect isn't full HD? Or is DVD Architect outputting one overall bit rate for both frames while DoStudio masters them at full bit rate separately? So confusing, I'm wishing I'd just gone with 2D at this point. DVD Architect encodes MVC 3D onto Blu ray, right? Just trying to see where each product is.
 

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You prerender the project, then bring it into DVD Architect Studio--a separate app for creating menus and burning. There is also a Soundforge Audio Studio for sound mixing. The DVD Architect does bluray, but not true 3D menus that I could see. I have not used it yet. A version of DVD Architect Pro comes with Vegas Pro 12 as well. If you are going to get Movie Studio 13, make sure it's the Platinum version, as the standard version does not have all the features nor DVD Architect.



Edit: I sent this while you were typing, so you have the info. You can burn a MVC 3D to bluray through both the Movie Studio and the DVD Architect (version 5).
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yeah, I didn't see a way to make 3D menus either in DVD Architect, but everything else looks good. I sent a message to Power Director 12 to see if it lets you adjust bit rate for final output as I did not see a way to do it besides their presets, maybe it's just a trial thing. Also doesn't seem to be a way to do differing audio channels on that app, like 5.1 for main feature and 2.0 for supporting tracks. But maybe I'll hear back soon. It looks like it lets you do 3D menus, but if it doesn't let you adjust bit rate, I think I'll go with one of Sony's.
 

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You are asking questions relating to software for 3D editing. All these threads and discussions are in the 3D section "3D source components. Here at AVS we had no real section to discuss shooting and editing of 3D so in the early days we just used the components section for these threads. If you post your questions in the threads there you will find people who do lots of editing with various editors and have sifted out all the nuances of each package.


In a brief summary if you want to creats BluRay 3D menus, the best tool is power Director. For all around all purpose editing, I prefer Vegas Pro. There are bit rate limitations for creating high end BluRay with these tools. If you need to render your work with commercial BluRay 3D bit rates then you will have to resort to the higher end specialty tools, like BluPrint for 3D authoring. These tools are not cheap. However, a few have experience with some tools from Pinnacle, and adobe, but you'll need to go to those threads to see if those will meet your needs. I don't use any of those.


Most of my work is all done in Vegas Pro and I create chapter stops with the markers and then render to a hard drive for playback. I do not distribute my work on media these days. However if I do make a menu structure program with 3 D. Menus, I use Power director after doing all the critical editing in Vegas Pro so I do most of my work with the two products.


To repeat: if you have to produce 40 Mbs, you will end to go with the more expensive editing and rendering packages.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It doesn't have to be 40 mbps, but I'd like to keep it at least on the same level as the source, so around 24-28 mbps. I can't tell what the bit rate is on the PD 12 presets, they don't appear to be indicated. One setting of 1920x1080 60i indicated it was 24 mbps, which was lower than the source material, the other settings didn't specify.


Since you have the PD app, Don, can you fire it up sometime and see what the options are for BD settings under the resolution settings? I still haven't heard back from them on my questions. I'm wondering if the options are the same for the trial version as the full version. Basically it doesn't appear to have a bit rate setting for BD on the final output. This is when you click create Blu ray, you can select 1920x108060i etc. I don't see any way to adjust the bit rate, to me it appears it's all fixed rate or locked at whatever preset for that resolution. Well, maybe I'll hear something from them tomorrow.


DoStudio is the one I want but not in the budget unfortunately, starts out at 3,000-20,000, yikes! I read awhile back about Blu Print, that one was something like 80k plus. When you go into the price section you have to ask for a quote, there's also Z Depth, which will do the 3D menus for Sony's apps. But as the saying goes, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it."


"Source" location does make more sense, now that I think about it, not being a dedicated thread I never can tell with shooting/software questions.
 

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Tom,


Good luck getting Cyberlink tech support to answer a question they don't want to, even if you pay them. Ask Barry C.



I don't believe there's a way around the bitrate limitations in PowerDirector or Vegas. As Don says, you'll have to pay the big bucks for that. Anyway, I'd advise against it until you've had a lot more time to work with 3D and figure out if you're willing to climb the learning curve. I'ill take some patience.


Vegas' 24mbps limitation for 24p Blu-ray 3D isn't too bad, especially for the types of projects those of us on this thread pursue. IMO, it's a purely arbitrary number, and only there to provide some protection for more expensive software. My JVC TD1 can shoot at 34mbps, which is clearly better to my eyes. Still, 24mbps can look really good. My editing workflow starts with Grass Valley Edius, and I process my 3D at 10 bits and export at a high bitrate. When I give Vegas that footage, it's capable of creating some great looking 24p 3D. Can't help much with menus. For less critical material, I shoot at 60i, render to 1280/60p and burn to Blu-ray with 3D menus in PowerDirector. I can achieve some pretty good results that way, but Edius/Vegas are my main tools. They're much more powerful and flexible. Again, the drawback is that darn learning curve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Do you use DVD Architect to output from Vegas? I just took a look at it. It has adjustable bit rate there up to 40 mbps. Or does the material have to be output from Vegas direct to disc? That option doesn't have menu screens that I can tell.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic  /t/1525157/downloaded-trial-version...as-pro-12-today-for-3d-workflow#post_24562558


Do you use DVD Architect to output from Vegas? I just took a look at it. It has adjustable bit rate there up to 40 mbps. Or does the material have to be output from Vegas direct to disc? That option doesn't have menu screens that I can tell.

I don't have much experience with DVD Architect. You can edit in Vegas and use the renders in DVD A, and that's probably going to be the issue. If you render the footage in Vegas, you're still limited to 24mbps for the MVC files. Is the 40mbps limit for 2D or 3D?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
it's probably for 2D, I just noticed that it was adjustable but I didn't import any 3D to it. I'll have to play around with it some more, I've yet to export anything yet, not even sure how to do it yet. I noticed in the built in burner that it recognizes mvc as the encoding method, I'm hoping that the DVD Architect will do the same.
 

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Things to know about DVD A.


It hasn't been updated in several years. Last version I used was 5.1 and it was not 3D capable. In Sony Vegas Pro, you needed to install DVD A to load the Dolby Digital 5.1 codec to render that audio form in Vegas Pro. To save on licensing fees, Sony only has licensed Dolby for DVD A. But once that is installed you will have the codec for Vegas even if not using DVD A.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ok, that's good to know. I'll check and see what version it's at. I couldn't tell if it did 3D or not. Actually, I'm not certain how to export the 3D or 2D yet from Vegas, I haven't gotten that far. From Vegas Pro it doesn't look like it does menu screens. I gather it's just a single track MVC encode from there?


I think i'll still get Vegas to work with editing for now and Power Director for the Z10k, but I might look into DoStudio for next year.
 
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