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Downward firing AV15H ?'s
Is there any reason I cant use the AV15H in a downward firing position?
Just wondering. Had been mocking up a few different designs and when I posted something about downward firing on the AE website they replied with "Also you know about the risks of downfiring ?"
Other than possible reverb from hardwoods is there anything else I would need to worry about?
Thanks
Just wondering. Had been mocking up a few different designs and when I posted something about downward firing on the AE website they replied with "Also you know about the risks of downfiring ?"
Other than possible reverb from hardwoods is there anything else I would need to worry about?
Thanks
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
You wouldn't be able to see the subs anyways they would be going behind a wall/cabinet.
I have a 15 h as well and the reason is the cone mass. The suspension on the av series is alot softer than most woofers and when you have all that mass moving up and down the suspension will sag through time. If you downfire it the warranty will be void as well. But the loose suspension helps with the great sensitivity!
Dan
Dan
Well that just kissed my design away.....Where can you read that the suspension is strong or not?
Meaning is this something you can read in the T/S?
My other design was with the Fi 15ssd.
Meaning is this something you can read in the T/S?
My other design was with the Fi 15ssd.
I don't think it's something you can read in the ts parameters, it's just a known fact, with it's single spider and such. IMO this is not a flaw, just doesn't make it a great candidate for downfiring. In a sense all drivers with large heavy cones will be affected in this way, though some obviously more than others. I personally would never down fire anything larger than a 10" maybe a certain 12, no matter how strong the suspension. People do it and are ok, but it just easier on the driver forward facing. You could probably get away with it on the AV-h as well. Hmmm, I wonder how hard it would be to design a zero gravity listening room?
Dan
Dan
Sag(mm) = (Cms * Mms * 9.81) * 1000
Cms = Vas(l) / (1180 * 344^2 * (Sd(sq cm)/10000)^2)
Mms = 1 / ((2*pi*Fs)^2 * Cms)
Percent Sag = (Sag / Xmax) * 100
or
Percentage of Sag = 24,849 / ( Xmax * Fs²)
or
Percentage of Sag = 981,000 / (Xmax * (2 * Pi * Fs)²)
You don't want to really go over 5%, or so they say.
I've had 15"s pointing down for 4 years, with no problems, or loss of output yet, and they hit the high side of 5%. Most people will tell you not to, but it can be done.
![]()
Cms = Vas(l) / (1180 * 344^2 * (Sd(sq cm)/10000)^2)
Mms = 1 / ((2*pi*Fs)^2 * Cms)
Percent Sag = (Sag / Xmax) * 100
or
Percentage of Sag = 24,849 / ( Xmax * Fs²)
or
Percentage of Sag = 981,000 / (Xmax * (2 * Pi * Fs)²)
You don't want to really go over 5%, or so they say.
I've had 15"s pointing down for 4 years, with no problems, or loss of output yet, and they hit the high side of 5%. Most people will tell you not to, but it can be done.
+1........No issues with excess Sag on the Av15. A matter of fact, the AV15 is better than most subs in this area with less than 2%. Downfire away!
Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 /forum/post/19458091
Sag(mm) = (Cms * Mms * 9.81) * 1000
Cms = Vas(l) / (1180 * 344^2 * (Sd(sq cm)/10000)^2)
Mms = 1 / ((2*pi*Fs)^2 * Cms)
Percent Sag = (Sag / Xmax) * 100
or
Percentage of Sag = 24,849 / ( Xmax * Fs²)
or
Percentage of Sag = 981,000 / (Xmax * (2 * Pi * Fs)²)
You don't want to really go over 5%, or so they say.
I've had 15"s pointing down for 4 years, with no problems, or loss of output yet, and they hit the high side of 5%. Most people will tell you not to, but it can be done.![]()
+1........No issues with excess Sag on the Av15. A matter of fact, the AV15 is better than most subs in this area with less than 2%. Downfire away!
Thanks Soho and Mayhem that means I can go ahead with my design. YES!!!!
Is there anything that anyone can see as far as the T/S would make the AV15H far superior to the Fi 15SSD?
I had compared both these subs in my design and they both seem to be pretty close. It was really just a matter of saving I think $50 per driver. SO if its just a simple matter of only money being the strong difference then I will stick with Johns AV's. I know there is a "bit of a delay," with getting them out but I dont mind. I have only heard great things about these AE drivers.
Oh and if the sag % is so low among others why does it void warranty?
Is there anything that anyone can see as far as the T/S would make the AV15H far superior to the Fi 15SSD?
I had compared both these subs in my design and they both seem to be pretty close. It was really just a matter of saving I think $50 per driver. SO if its just a simple matter of only money being the strong difference then I will stick with Johns AV's. I know there is a "bit of a delay," with getting them out but I dont mind. I have only heard great things about these AE drivers.
Oh and if the sag % is so low among others why does it void warranty?
What's your design parameters?
I don't know anything about that. Maybe he will pop in here tomorrow to set things straight on his drivers.
I don't remember him ever telling someone not to do it, when downfiring LLTs were the rage. Most all manufactures will suggest not doing it though.
If you need it to last 10-20years I would try something else. Gravity will eventually win they say.
Quote:
Oh and if the sag % is so low among others why does it void warranty?
I don't know anything about that. Maybe he will pop in here tomorrow to set things straight on his drivers.
I don't remember him ever telling someone not to do it, when downfiring LLTs were the rage. Most all manufactures will suggest not doing it though.
If you need it to last 10-20years I would try something else. Gravity will eventually win they say.
Sounds like a V8 vs Flat 6.......hahaha
In that amount of time I would have added more subs or moved back to the USA. SO I dont have to have it last 10-20 years.
In that amount of time I would have added more subs or moved back to the USA. SO I dont have to have it last 10-20 years.
If you guys want a quicker answer on the warranty then you should post the question on the AEspeaker.com forum.
Agreed, you can talk to someone over by the name of Simon5 who is kinda like John's go to person on the forum. He'll set you up.
Dan
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/19458554
If you guys want a quicker answer on the warranty then you should post the question on the AEspeaker.com forum.
Agreed, you can talk to someone over by the name of Simon5 who is kinda like John's go to person on the forum. He'll set you up.
Dan
Warranty Policy
Acoustic Elegance LLC warranties all drivers to be free from defects in material and workmanship under normal use for a period of 3 years from the date of original purchase. Each unit is carefully inspected physically, tested and measured, and listened to prior to shipping to nearly eliminate any manufacturing defects. However, in the rare case that service should be necessary for any reason due to manufacturing defect or malfunction during the warranty period, Acoustic Elegance LLC at our own discretion will replace or repair the defective merchandise at no charge.
Please note that the following issues are often caused by abuse and may not constitute a warranty claim:
Open voice coil
Burnt or charred voice coil
Bottomed voice coil
Out-gassed voice coil
Voice Coil with a bent former
Burnt tinsel leads
Spider sag
Speakers with silicone caulk used for gasket material
Damaged cone, surround, dustcap, or outer gasket
Damage caused by exposure to excessive heat, chemicals, water, and/or UV radiation
Damage caused by installation slips (screwdriver holes)
Damage caused by negligence, misuse, accident, or abuse
Damage caused during freight or transit
Return shipping on non-defective item
Other items or merchandise to which an Acoustic Elegance LLC product was installed, or used in conjunction with
Other items not manufactured by Acoustic Elegance LLC
Items previously repaired or modified by other than Acoustic Elegance LLC
Our warranty is quite standard. It is the same as the old Lambda Acoustics warranty which was adopted from Kicker originally. Nothing is out of the ordinary by any means. Regarding spider sag, the formula posted will give you an initial sag percentage only. Over time the effects of gravity will cause more of a sag and bias. Gravity also affects the upward and downward force on the driver when being used in an up/downfiring application. That said, the AV15 is no worse than any other driver for up/down firing application. However, ideally I wouldn't fire any driver this way unless necessary. If you need a cabinet that fires downward, the ideal application is bandpass design where the port (or ports for 6th order) can fire downward and keep the woofer firing horizontally.
John
Acoustic Elegance LLC warranties all drivers to be free from defects in material and workmanship under normal use for a period of 3 years from the date of original purchase. Each unit is carefully inspected physically, tested and measured, and listened to prior to shipping to nearly eliminate any manufacturing defects. However, in the rare case that service should be necessary for any reason due to manufacturing defect or malfunction during the warranty period, Acoustic Elegance LLC at our own discretion will replace or repair the defective merchandise at no charge.
Please note that the following issues are often caused by abuse and may not constitute a warranty claim:
Open voice coil
Burnt or charred voice coil
Bottomed voice coil
Out-gassed voice coil
Voice Coil with a bent former
Burnt tinsel leads
Spider sag
Speakers with silicone caulk used for gasket material
Damaged cone, surround, dustcap, or outer gasket
Damage caused by exposure to excessive heat, chemicals, water, and/or UV radiation
Damage caused by installation slips (screwdriver holes)
Damage caused by negligence, misuse, accident, or abuse
Damage caused during freight or transit
Return shipping on non-defective item
Other items or merchandise to which an Acoustic Elegance LLC product was installed, or used in conjunction with
Other items not manufactured by Acoustic Elegance LLC
Items previously repaired or modified by other than Acoustic Elegance LLC
Our warranty is quite standard. It is the same as the old Lambda Acoustics warranty which was adopted from Kicker originally. Nothing is out of the ordinary by any means. Regarding spider sag, the formula posted will give you an initial sag percentage only. Over time the effects of gravity will cause more of a sag and bias. Gravity also affects the upward and downward force on the driver when being used in an up/downfiring application. That said, the AV15 is no worse than any other driver for up/down firing application. However, ideally I wouldn't fire any driver this way unless necessary. If you need a cabinet that fires downward, the ideal application is bandpass design where the port (or ports for 6th order) can fire downward and keep the woofer firing horizontally.
John
In a sealed sub, gravity is all but irrelevant. Gravity is equally at work in every driver position, and I would argue that any ill effects could be worse in a horizontal mount. Up/Down firing drivers have to sag against a sealed volume of air and, when properly sealed, gravity is simply not enough force to cause a significant long term problem.
The Fi SSD drivers have a very stiff suspension that isn't going to sag. The AE drivers have a higher compliance, but, if they're ever available again, I wouldn't worry about cone sag.
"Over time" has never been defined, but I'll say that the amount of time required to present a performance problem would be impossible to prove and outlives the warranty in any case.
Cone sag in a down firing sealed sub is the least of your potential problems, unless someone can chime in with some hard data that proves otherwise.
Bosso
The Fi SSD drivers have a very stiff suspension that isn't going to sag. The AE drivers have a higher compliance, but, if they're ever available again, I wouldn't worry about cone sag.
"Over time" has never been defined, but I'll say that the amount of time required to present a performance problem would be impossible to prove and outlives the warranty in any case.
Cone sag in a down firing sealed sub is the least of your potential problems, unless someone can chime in with some hard data that proves otherwise.
Bosso
The woofers will of course be available, and fairly soon. While I understand that you are upset you have not been able to order more woofers, you have received all the drivers you had paid for prior to any issues here. Those who have ordered drivers and are currently waiting have been given updates regularly now with the thread on our forum. Again there have been issues that were beyond any control of our own. When a vendor delivers defective parts after being paid in full and is then unwilling to replace the parts, there is not much we can do on our end. The only option was to find a long term solution to avoid the possibility of the problem in the future. This meant making surrounds here.
I've spent the past 9-10 months getting through all the hurdles of sourcing the raw material, paying for new tooling, and developing a thermoformer to make the surrounds. The end result is a properly made part that we can control the supply of. I will also have the anodizing system ready within a few weeks so all new aluminum cones will be anodized either clear or in black.
Once we have the surrounds ready we'll begin building the drivers. We do have quite a backlog right now so any new orders will take some time to get to. Those who have not ordered yet will need to be patient as the lead times will not come back down until the end of the year.
Here is the status thread on the AV drivers.
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...php?f=7&t=2597
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass /forum/post/19461761
The AE drivers have a higher compliance, but, if they're ever available again, I wouldn't worry about cone sag.
The woofers will of course be available, and fairly soon. While I understand that you are upset you have not been able to order more woofers, you have received all the drivers you had paid for prior to any issues here. Those who have ordered drivers and are currently waiting have been given updates regularly now with the thread on our forum. Again there have been issues that were beyond any control of our own. When a vendor delivers defective parts after being paid in full and is then unwilling to replace the parts, there is not much we can do on our end. The only option was to find a long term solution to avoid the possibility of the problem in the future. This meant making surrounds here.
I've spent the past 9-10 months getting through all the hurdles of sourcing the raw material, paying for new tooling, and developing a thermoformer to make the surrounds. The end result is a properly made part that we can control the supply of. I will also have the anodizing system ready within a few weeks so all new aluminum cones will be anodized either clear or in black.
Once we have the surrounds ready we'll begin building the drivers. We do have quite a backlog right now so any new orders will take some time to get to. Those who have not ordered yet will need to be patient as the lead times will not come back down until the end of the year.
Here is the status thread on the AV drivers.
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...php?f=7&t=2597
John
The suspension of a driver is designed to support the VC, keep it centered in the gap, and keep it from moving side to side when the driver is horizontally mounted. On the other hand, it is also designed to allow the VC to move as freely as possible in an inward and outward motion. Turning this driver to an up/down firing orientation then allows gravity to move the coil off center(initial sag). The acceleration of gravity subtracts from the overall acceleration of the driver on the upward stroke and increases the overall acceleration on the downward stroke. The suspension also has the ability to be physically biased. With more force pushing down on the spider and surround, it will begin to change shape and be permanently biased in this direction. Over time (yes there is no real way to quantify this) the suspension will sag more and more. Keep in mind that air is not a good medium to hold pressure. Even in an absolutely perfectly sealed enclosure, the air inside the enclosure can expand/contract enough that an up/down firing woofer won't be held perfectly in place. Then keep in mind that most enclosures are not perfectly sealed. Even a 3/4" thick sheet of mdf is partially porous and will not hold 100% and air will leak through unless it is sealed. For vented enclosures there is no air spring to hold the driver when at rest.
In addition, I've reconed dozens of older EV, Altec, etc drivers in bass horns and things that have failed due to sag over time when mounted vertically. These drivers had no other apparent issues other than high amounts of sag to the suspension. Sag that wasn't there as the cabinets were first designed and built. This is not a new concept and has been in nearly every woofer manufacturer warranty for years now.
Again, with that all said, you CAN mount a driver up or down firing and MAY not ever have any problems. In all reality you will likely not have any problems within the warranty period of 3 years. However if the life of a driver is cut from 20 years to 10 years due to the orientation of which it was mounted, I feel I should suggest against it unless it is absolutely necessary to mount in that configuration.
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass /forum/post/19461761
In a sealed sub, gravity is all but irrelevant. Gravity is equally at work in every driver position, and I would argue that any ill effects could be worse in a horizontal mount. Up/Down firing drivers have to sag against a sealed volume of air and, when properly sealed, gravity is simply not enough force to cause a significant long term problem.
Quote:
Cone sag in a down firing sealed sub is the least of your potential problems, unless someone can chime in with some hard data that proves otherwise.
The suspension of a driver is designed to support the VC, keep it centered in the gap, and keep it from moving side to side when the driver is horizontally mounted. On the other hand, it is also designed to allow the VC to move as freely as possible in an inward and outward motion. Turning this driver to an up/down firing orientation then allows gravity to move the coil off center(initial sag). The acceleration of gravity subtracts from the overall acceleration of the driver on the upward stroke and increases the overall acceleration on the downward stroke. The suspension also has the ability to be physically biased. With more force pushing down on the spider and surround, it will begin to change shape and be permanently biased in this direction. Over time (yes there is no real way to quantify this) the suspension will sag more and more. Keep in mind that air is not a good medium to hold pressure. Even in an absolutely perfectly sealed enclosure, the air inside the enclosure can expand/contract enough that an up/down firing woofer won't be held perfectly in place. Then keep in mind that most enclosures are not perfectly sealed. Even a 3/4" thick sheet of mdf is partially porous and will not hold 100% and air will leak through unless it is sealed. For vented enclosures there is no air spring to hold the driver when at rest.
In addition, I've reconed dozens of older EV, Altec, etc drivers in bass horns and things that have failed due to sag over time when mounted vertically. These drivers had no other apparent issues other than high amounts of sag to the suspension. Sag that wasn't there as the cabinets were first designed and built. This is not a new concept and has been in nearly every woofer manufacturer warranty for years now.
Again, with that all said, you CAN mount a driver up or down firing and MAY not ever have any problems. In all reality you will likely not have any problems within the warranty period of 3 years. However if the life of a driver is cut from 20 years to 10 years due to the orientation of which it was mounted, I feel I should suggest against it unless it is absolutely necessary to mount in that configuration.
John
Translation: AV drivers are available as a pre-pay/pre-order only with an indefinite wait time.
What driver has been around 20 years that you've tested and base this wild assumption on?
Bosso
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz /forum/post/19462356
The woofers will of course be available, and fairly soon. While I understand that you are upset you have not been able to order more woofers, you have received all the drivers you had paid for prior to any issues here. Those who have ordered drivers and are currently waiting have been given updates regularly now with the thread on our forum. Again there have been issues that were beyond any control of our own. When a vendor delivers defective parts after being paid in full and is then unwilling to replace the parts, there is not much we can do on our end. The only option was to find a long term solution to avoid the possibility of the problem in the future. This meant making surrounds here.
I've spent the past 9-10 months getting through all the hurdles of sourcing the raw material, paying for new tooling, and developing a thermoformer to make the surrounds. The end result is a properly made part that we can control the supply of. I will also have the anodizing system ready within a few weeks so all new aluminum cones will be anodized either clear or in black.
Once we have the surrounds ready we'll begin building the drivers. We do have quite a backlog right now so any new orders will take some time to get to. Those who have not ordered yet will need to be patient as the lead times will not come back down until the end of the year.
Here is the status thread on the AV drivers.
Translation: AV drivers are available as a pre-pay/pre-order only with an indefinite wait time.
Quote:
Again, with that all said, you CAN mount a driver up or down firing and MAY not ever have any problems. In all reality you will likely not have any problems within the warranty period of 3 years. However if the life of a driver is cut from 20 years to 10 years due to the orientation of which it was mounted, I feel I should suggest against it unless it is absolutely necessary to mount in that configuration.
What driver has been around 20 years that you've tested and base this wild assumption on?
Bosso
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
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