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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
 http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html

This is interesting. 2L records are readying a high-resolution music download service, and have a page where you can download test samples of their recordings in PCM WAV, FLAC, WMA Pro, DTS, but get this - DSD and DXD!


As for what consumer hardware and software on this planet can even play it back, well it's interesting...all Sony Vaio desktops and laptops as from 2005 come with Sony's "Sound Reality" chip which supports multichannel DSD and DXD. They come with Sony's "DSD Direct" player which I have not been able to get my hands on. Although I don't think it can play DXD WAVs. Also, newer versions of Sony's Sonic Stage Mastering Studio, which also comes with the Vaios I believe, can record, edit and playback DSD. Wish I had this software...and then of course all those uber-expensive SACD authoring and pre-authoring apps like nexStage SACD creator.


The most common file extension used for DSD64, which is the common 1-bit 2.8MHz format used on SACD discs, is .dff. DXD is mainly used for editing by the studio engineer, but DSD64 is the one of interest here. 2L do not have DSD128 on offer (5.6MHz standard), but they record in DXD so there's no point.


So that's all very fine, but what about everyone else who doesn't have a Sony Vaio? Well you need a sound card with a DAC that supports DSD input. For those of you with the Auzentech X-fi Prelude, it supports stereo DSD! (but not multichannel, and not DXD). Also, the Realtek ALC889 integrated audio chipset (used on boards like Gigabyte GA-X38T-DQ6) does, but probably not DXD.


At the moment, the only way I can play back the DFF files from 2L, is with a DSD plugin for WMP (again by Sony), which I HAVE gotten a hold of. It's a DSD->PCM plugin. Obviously, it sounds quite nice! But pure actual DSD playback is what we're after, and I wanted to ask anyone, do you think the upcoming HDMI 1.3 cards by Asus and Auzentech are going to support DSD (i.e. bitstreaming DSD through HDMI on to a receiver)? Could it, hypothetically, with a driver hack? Any hardware device with HDMI 1.2 onwards has capability to pass DSD, encrypted or unencrypted. But I wonder if Asus and Auzentech will not supported it in the drivers.


I wonder if there are any other sound cards that support DSD? Given no SACD-capable drives have been allowed or intended by Sony, DSD support has been pointless. But with these downloads, we may not even need SACD for PC playback!
 

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Wow. I'm supprised someone else hasn't commented yet.


Direct download DSD?


if that's so, and the hardware isn't initially priced high like the SACD players were when they first came out, include multi-channel, then that would potentially obsolete SACD disks.
 

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I wonder if we'll ever be able to burn discs and play them in our SACD players?


This is good news though, and step in the right direction.
 

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The only problems I can see with a download without physical media future are...


1) People will have to start thinking like backup administrators. You are essentially risking many thousands of dollars worth of music (assuming people even pay for it...) to hard disk or computer failures. Typically, consumers suck at backing up computer data.


2) I still think there is something to be said for that feeling of ownership and the experience of discovering and purchasing a new cd or album. I get all antsy when I know a new vinyl LP is heading my way in the mail. Grabbing something off of a torrent when you just read a review of it 15 minutes ago cheapens something you might otherwise really enjoy.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by illy /forum/post/13681743


The only problems I can see with a download without physical media future are...


1) People will have to start thinking like backup administrators....


2) I still think there is something to be said for that feeling of ownership and the experience of discovering and purchasing a new cd or album....

I'm with you. on #1 and #2. In addition, how would you run a used record store with downloads? There's something fun about browsing the titles and finding a rare surprises.
 

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The acquisitive nature of humanity will always allow for physical media (for music, movies, books, etc.) to always be around, though its relevance and popularity will wax and wane.
 

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I wonder if any Oppo players with DSD and USB 2.0 will be able to play these downloads?


Oppo 980H?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by illy /forum/post/13681743


The only problems I can see with a download without physical media future are...


1) People will have to start thinking like backup administrators. You are essentially risking many thousands of dollars worth of music (assuming people even pay for it...) to hard disk or computer failures. Typically, consumers suck at backing up computer data.


2) I still think there is something to be said for that feeling of ownership and the experience of discovering and purchasing a new cd or album. I get all antsy when I know a new vinyl LP is heading my way in the mail. Grabbing something off of a torrent when you just read a review of it 15 minutes ago cheapens something you might otherwise really enjoy.


100% agree, people do suck at backing up their stuff, this includes myself and I am a Database administrator.


The physicial media allows us to keep the music without having to manage it and managing your music library can be fun to do from time to time, not likely to become a daily excercise for most people. I could download something but would hate having manage my files.
 

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Downloaded the 257 MB Surroiund 5.1 DFF file. This extracts to about 376 MB and seems to be one track only.


Burnt to DVD as data dvd using nero smart start essentials. Wouldn't accept .dff file type for music CD/DVD.


Tried in Oppo 980 and orignal PS3 and Oppo says unknown disc and PS3 recognises data disc but says no tracks when you try to play it.


Obvious question is what am I doing wrong?


cheers blairy
 

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I sent a mail to them about this, no one has replied so far hahahaa.


so much for DSD and SACD for replacing CDs
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blairy /forum/post/14132918


Downloaded the 257 MB Surroiund 5.1 DFF file. This extracts to about 376 MB and seems to be one track only.


Burnt to DVD as data dvd using nero smart start essentials. Wouldn't accept .dff file type for music CD/DVD.


Tried in Oppo 980 and orignal PS3 and Oppo says unknown disc and PS3 recognises data disc but says no tracks when you try to play it.


Obvious question is what am I doing wrong?


cheers blairy

You are not doing anything wrong as files provided are master material. They are DFF (DSDIFF) which is a 1-bit profesional audio file format used for SACD production. The name stands for Direct Stream Digital Interchange File Format (file extension .dff). You could transform it to DSF with some highly priced editing software.


Note that PS3 can play DSF (Direct Stream File and extension is .dsf) which is a 1-bit audio file format developed and used by Sony. They work in some VAIO personal and laptop computers equiped with Sound Reality Sigma-Delta DAC and also on before mentioned PS3.


You can play stereo version of both types with DSD WMP plugin. http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/files/14...ackPlug-in.zip
 

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There's a guide on 'How to make DSD Discs' at http://www.ps3sacd.com/dsddiscguide.html including the plug-in for DSD playback with Windows Media Player 10/11.


For the reason Raveer explains directly above (the different DSD flavours of DSF and DFF) the procedure will not work (in this form) for the 2L downloads, sadly.
 

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I have a Creative X-Fi Elite Pro sound card which has a Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC. It supports direct DSD input and will filter and decode straight to analog (no DSD -> PCM). However, I don't know if there is software support in Windows for direct DSD decoding. I'd love to get my hands on that Sony DSD Direct Player.
 

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It might be of interest to the list that Morten from 2L is making his HD library available to iTrax.com...stay tuned.


I realize there has always been two camps on the DSD (DXD) vs. HD PCM debate. I'm a staunch believer that the noise shaping of DSD is untenable and requires bandwidth filtering to master onto the discs. PCM on the other hand is wonderful if done right.


And HD downloads are happening NOW! There are many customers that purchase gigabytes from iTrax.com...they are all over the world. They have the hardware and want instant (or near instant) gratification...rather than waiting for a box. As for backups, I have a record of their purchases and if their hard drive goes down...I let them download them again.


This is the future and the future is now. For less than $2500, you can acquire a truly state-of-the-art 2-channel HD Audio playback system that will beat the very best CD player on the planet! Imagine spending $65,000 for the Burmester to spin standard resolution CDs?!? I can't.
 

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The WMP11 plugin will not allow me to play the DSD sample files, I just get an error from WMP11.


Not good. I'll try the WAVE at 96 next.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. AIX /forum/post/14662127


It might be of interest to the list that Morten from 2L is making his HD library available to iTrax.com...stay tuned.


I realize there has always been two camps on the DSD (DXD) vs. HD PCM debate. I'm a staunch believer that the noise shaping of DSD is untenable and requires bandwidth filtering to master onto the discs. PCM on the other hand is wonderful if done right.


And HD downloads are happening NOW! There are many customers that purchase gigabytes from iTrax.com...they are all over the world. They have the hardware and want instant (or near instant) gratification...rather than waiting for a box. As for backups, I have a record of their purchases and if their hard drive goes down...I let them download them again.


This is the future and the future is now. For less than $2500, you can acquire a truly state-of-the-art 2-channel HD Audio playback system that will beat the very best CD player on the planet! Imagine spending $65,000 for the Burmester to spin standard resolution CDs?!? I can't.

Mark, you have piqued my curiosity with your mention of a $2,500 SOTA HD audio playback system. Can you tell me the specific components for the front end? I want to start downloading your recordings but have not yet taken the hard drive plunge!
 

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I'm sorry to have been away so long but life has been quite busy. The system I'm referring to when I say a great system can be acquired for less than $2500 is a Mac Mini with a Benchmark DAC-1 USB attached. You can playback a downloaded AIX Records track (try Mosaic from Laurence Juber's Guitar Noir for the ultimate in high frequency content) through iTrax.com. Try and you'll see what I mean.
 

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sorry to dig up an old thread, but do you know of any way of sending these dsd recordings through hdmi to a DSD capible reciever?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by zryder /forum/post/16293673


sorry to dig up an old thread, but do you know of any way of sending these dsd recordings through hdmi to a DSD capible reciever?

Do you have a PS3? That's the only way I know, that you can currently do it. You can burn DSD files (in DSF form) to a "DSD Disc" with Sony's DSD Direct 2.0, which actually can run on a non-Sony computer, I have burned off DSD Discs on my Dell computer myself. These DSD Discs play on the PS3....I dont have a PS3 though so have tested it...

OH....just realised. These 2L recordings are in the form of DFF, not DSF...not much software, or anything I have ever used, will convert between DFF and DSF - two types of DSD audio containers. The downloads are mainly for audio engineers to test out on their DAWs.


DSD in general has really not been opened up to consumers, I hope it will one day. It's mostly in the hands on Sony....grr
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zryder /forum/post/16293673


sorry to dig up an old thread, but do you know of any way of sending these DSD recordings through HDMI to a DSD-capable reciever?
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchglen /forum/post/16294941


Do you have a PS3? That's the only way I know, that you can currently do it. [...] I dont have a PS3 though so have tested it...

Sorry but PS3 will not output DSD via HDMI, only (high-resolution) PCM. See the PS3 SACD FAQ .


The best way I know to play DSD to HDMI is to record it on a blank DVD (see DSD Disc Guide referenced above) and play that on an SACD player with DSD output via HDMI such as the Sony SCD-XA5400ES, or some Oppo models.

Quote:
OH....just realised. These 2L recordings are in the form of DFF, not DSF...not much software, or anything I have ever used, will convert between DFF and DSF - two types of DSD audio containers.

Correct. Some of the professional stuff (hardware) from Korg and such may do it. The players I mentioned above will not help here until it's converted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. AIX /forum/post/14662127


I realize there has always been two camps on the DSD (DXD) vs. HD PCM debate.

There has been the DSD vs HD PCM debate but DXD = HD PCM so I think the debate will end.
 
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