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Discussion Starter #1
I've downloaded some manuals to the Onkyo DV-SP504, Marantz DV-9600, and Pioneer Elite DV-58AV. The manual to the onkyo states that when DSD/PCM is set to DSD, none of the speaker setup options have any affect during SACD playback. The Marantz's manual states that when DSD/PCM is set to DSD, the speaker distance settings have no affect during SACD playback. However, it doesn't state the same for bass management and downmix settings. The Pioneer has no DSD/PCM setting, however its manual states that speaker distance settings have no affect during SACD playback. And like the Marantz, it doesn't state the same for bass management and downmix settings. Does this mean that the Marantz and the Pioneer handle speaker size and downmix settings via analog tone controls and analog rerouting, as opposed to converting DSD to PCM? Adendum: Being that with the Pioneer, speaker distance settings have no affect during SACD playback, does that mean the Pioneer converts DSD-to-analog, as opposed to DSD-to-PCM-to-analog?
 

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I am afraid that I cannot understand what you are asking. The Pioneer switches automatically from DSD to PCM output via HDMI depending on the device it is feeding.
 

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Discussion Starter #3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/14339981


I am afraid that I cannot understand what you are asking. The Pioneer switches automatically from DSD to PCM output via HDMI depending on the device it is feeding.

I am talking about 5.1-channel analog pre-output operation. Nothing to do with HDMI.
 

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So basically you want to know how bass management is performed when the player is in DSD SACD playback mode correct?


The bass management is done in the digital domain. And yes a pure/direct signal does sound better than a processed one IF you have five full range speakers and all are equidistant from the listener. Its not very practical to set up in most homes though especially given the limited content that is available in DVD-A and SACD. In my opinion the conversion of DSD->PCM is more transparent than bass management/time alignment or post processing (again provided you have full range equidistant speakers).


I have four towers and plan to do a workaround for my small center by going through a separate sub and using the crossover on the sub which also has the benefit of more precise than the internal crossover of many receivers and universal players.
 

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Discussion Starter #5

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Originally Posted by apodaca /forum/post/14341165


So basically you want to know how bass management is performed when the player is in DSD SACD playback mode correct?


The bass management is done in the digital domain. And yes a pure/direct signal does sound better than a processed one IF you have five full range speakers and all are equidistant from the listener. Its not very practical to set up in most homes though especially given the limited content that is available in DVD-A and SACD. In my opinion the conversion of DSD->PCM is more transparent than bass management/time alignment or post processing (again provided you have full range equidistant speakers).


I have four towers and plan to do a workaround for my small center by going through a separate sub and using the crossover on the sub which also has the benefit of more precise than the internal crossover of many receivers and universal players.

You answered part of my question. When applying bass management, is it possible to keep SACD in its DSD domain, as opposed to converting it to PCM? I actually don't need to apply bass management. You see, I bought a Yamaha HTiB with two good-sounding bookshelf-style front speakers, each with a 6.5" woofer and 1" tweeter. After I had the system for a while, I grew tired of the small center and surround speakers that come standard with home theater speaker systems. So I called Yamaha parts and ordered three more of the exact same model front speakers. I have two of them standing vertically for the surrounds, and because of hight limitations, I have one of them on its side as a center speaker. And with its 10" nonpowered passive subwoofer to spread some icing on the cake, I couldn't be more pleased with the results! My problem is that I have a piece of junk Yamaha DVD-C750 changer which sounds great for Dolby Digital and DTS playback via optical connection, using the DACs in my receiver. However, the analog output on my 750 is of average quality, blocking the full potential of SACD playback.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom /forum/post/14341538


You answered part of my question. When applying bass management, is it possible to keep SACD in its DSD domain, as opposed to converting it to PCM? I actually don't need to apply bass management. You see, I bought a Yamaha HTiB with two good-sounding bookshelf-style front speakers, each with a 6.5" woofer and 1" tweeter.

You don't need bass management? A 6.5" woofer fairly cries out for bass management help.


Oh, btw, all players convert DSD to PCM for bass management, afaik. Supposedly, some Sony SACD players had this capability but they are not universal players.
 

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Discussion Starter #7

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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/14342273


You don't need bass management? A 6.5" woofer fairly cries out for bass management help.


Oh, btw, all players convert DSD to PCM for bass management, afaik. Supposedly, some Sony SACD players had this capability but they are not universal players.

With the Marantz DV9600's DSD/PCM mode set to DSD, and with the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV handling SACD playback the same way by not allowing speaker distance adjustments, while at the same time allowing bass management adjustments, if I have the speakers set to 'Large' and the subwoofer set to 'On' for normal routing of an SACD's LFE channel, will that give me pure DSD with these two models?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom /forum/post/14342394


With the Marantz DV9600's DSD/PCM mode set to DSD, and with the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV handling SACD playback the same way by not allowing speaker distance adjustments, while at the same time allowing bass management adjustments, if I have the speakers set to 'Large' and the subwoofer set to 'On' for normal routing of an SACD's LFE channel, will that give me pure DSD with these two models?

Probably. If I assume you are using analog outputs from the players, that would depend on the internal processing of the DAC stages of the players and I cannot vouch, with certainty, for those. Why are you so obsessed with "pure DSD" at the expense of everything else?
 

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Discussion Starter #9

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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/14342882


Probably. If I assume you are using analog outputs from the players, that would depend on the internal processing of the DAC stages of the players and I cannot vouch, with certainty, for those. Why are you so obsessed with "pure DSD" at the expense of everything else?

I know there is a subtle difference between CD and SACD because I have compared the same stereo track on a hybrid. Even on an average-quality budget changer that converts DSD to PCM, I can still hear more overtones on the SACD layer, even converted to PCM. I can imagine how much more overtone I'd hear with a wider frequency response. As far as my bookshelf speakers are concerned, there are times when the bass is so strong that I can't believe it's not coming from my subwoofer!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom /forum/post/14343436


I know there is a subtle difference between CD and SACD because I have compared the same stereo track on a hybrid. Even on an average-quality budget changer that converts DSD to PCM, I can still hear more overtones on the SACD layer, even converted to PCM. I can imagine how much more overtone I'd hear with a wider frequency response. As far as my bookshelf speakers are concerned, there are times when the bass is so strong that I can't believe it's not coming from my subwoofer!

I am skeptical.
 

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I would agree with Kal that a small bookshelf speaker is not idel to run full range. In fact I believe Kal has an all equal bookshelf setup for multi channel so I would listen to any advice he gives.


Also, remember that the speakers MUST be equidistant or else you will hear information from the surrounds before the fronts and it is annoying - I have attempted it myself in my old home where the couch was right up against a wall in the back. Only other choice would be for you to buy three subs to make the speakers truly full range - this is not uncommon, there are even people herewho set up stereo subwoofers for their front channels.


The biggest hit to sound quality in the analog domain can come from improper placement/time alignment as well as improper bass management which is why people sought players with a flexible crossover instead of the more common 120hz variety. In the case of an all digital connection via HDMI I have found that post processing in the receiver is not transparent at all and I would probably opt for none.


Well do let me know how it works out for you.
 

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I didn't know Yamaha had a HTIB with 6.5" woofers. They're usually around 4" or so.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by apodaca /forum/post/14346629


I would agree with Kal that a small bookshelf speaker is not idel to run full range. In fact I believe Kal has an all equal bookshelf setup for multi channel ..................

Yes, and they are bass-managed.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon /forum/post/14350728


Question...is there a big difference in hearing pure DSD and PCM? Or would you even notice?


frenchmon

Minor difference, imho, and preference is contingent on the specific equipment.
 
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