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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys....I am building a HT room and I am going for you dont see anything but the screen look......So my front three speakers will be behind the screen...and then to the left of that my components on a shelf with a glass door covering them.......Underneath them however I would like to put my sub with a speaker cloth door.....I know this can be done...typically with a front firing and front ported sub, but with the SuperCube I....with the passive radiators on the side, will this present a problem?
 

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Absolutely a problem. You might actually want to put the SuperCube I into the garbage
All kidding aside, this will prevent immense challenges as the cabinet would need to be free of almost all resonances. Having radiators on 2 additional sides will rattle the bejesus out of that cabinet. I don't anticipate there is a way to make it sound good.


And I'm sorry I took a stab at that subwoofer, but I just disagree with how DefTech does their frequency response measurements. They never indicate what response their speakers REALLY have meaning they don't indicate where the -3db or -10db points are.
 

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wow
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 /forum/post/15552398


Absolutely a problem. You might actually want to put the SuperCube I into the garbage
All kidding aside, this will prevent immense challenges as the cabinet would need to be free of almost all resonances. Having radiators on 2 additional sides will rattle the bejesus out of that cabinet. I don't anticipate there is a way to make it sound good.


And I'm sorry I took a stab at that subwoofer, but I just disagree with how DefTech does their frequency response measurements. They never indicate what response their speakers REALLY have meaning they don't indicate where the -3db or -10db points are.

Thank you soooooooooooooo much, you are such a great help....all kidding aside just letting a nube like me know that "Having radiators on 2 additional sides will rattle the bejesus out of that cabinet." would have been good enough, but thanks for the response.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FHT123 /forum/post/15559141


Thank you soooooooooooooo much, you are such a great help....all kidding aside just letting a nube like me know that "Having radiators on 2 additional sides will rattle the bejesus out of that cabinet." would have been good enough, but thanks for the response.

Sorry I thought it was funny. No offense intended. It won't work, that's the bottom line. Hope it helps.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 /forum/post/15552398


Absolutely a problem. You might actually want to put the SuperCube I into the garbage
All kidding aside, this will prevent immense challenges as the cabinet would need to be free of almost all resonances. Having radiators on 2 additional sides will rattle the bejesus out of that cabinet. I don't anticipate there is a way to make it sound good.


And I'm sorry I took a stab at that subwoofer, but I just disagree with how DefTech does their frequency response measurements. They never indicate what response their speakers REALLY have meaning they don't indicate where the -3db or -10db points are.

Your disagreement of their business practices does not provide legitimate insight into the performance of their products.


Just because McD's doesn't tell you how much more flavor is in your first or last bite doesn't mean you won't eat their Big Macs and like it anyways.


And if you think Big Macs are garbage, then you gotta wonder why McD's is still selling them after all these years, right? Is it really the marketing hype? Or maybe they actually taste great to those billions served?


Since there is no mandatory requirement or legislated standard for speaker companies to list the +/- X db rolloff measurements of their products, they tend to market specs according to whatever they think the public will buy. That's just business.


Ultimately, their success will not depend solely on the marketing materials but rather the testimonials of those who try, buy, like, and recommend them to friends and family.


You're definitely entitled to your opinion, if there's a factual basis for it. If you've owned a DefTech Supercube I and set it up correctly in your HT room and it doesn't live up to what was advertised, then by all means you're justified to denounce the product.


But claiming a product should be put in the garbage because the marketing materials don't read like a best seller perhaps isn't the best testing method. If the specs pronounce the product to be trash-worthy, then fine I can agree with your suggestion (a la white van speakers). But I believe the SC I has sufficient capability and does sound good for smaller to perhaps medium-sized applications.


And I'm not just referring to DefTech alone, but to any brand. Even the much-hated Bose is still in business even after all the bashing. Must be something about them that appeals to people to keep them chugging along, right? And it's not just marketing hype, since they offer a 30 day trial period for returns if you're not satisfied. I tried it, didn't like them, so I returned them.


No big deal. Others liked the sound and look of Bose speakers and kept theirs after the trial period. They're satisfied, so good for them.


As for the OP's question regarding placement of the SC I in a closed cabinet, I would have to say no in agreement because of the side passive radiators.


No harm in trying, though to see if you'll like the sound. I would think there would be more localized rattling and cabinet vibration by hiding it in the enclosure.


Can you not just put it behind the couch or unassumingly in a corner?


Good luck on finding the best placement to "hide" that sub.


And thirdeye, I'm not looking to start a feud with you by any means. Just want to set the record straight that we all don't necessarily find happiness with the same things. That's why there's more than one speaker company in business. And we can't discount the tastes of others just because the packaging is not pleasing to our eyes. It's the product we're paying for, right? Is the spec sheet for your speakers on display in your HT? I would think not, but the quality of sound is there for all to hear when you turn it on and our ears become the best judge of the product.


Cheers to you in finding your audio nirvana, regardless of what anyone else says about it.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lodit /forum/post/15559307


Your disagreement of their business practices does not provide legitimate insight into the performance of their products.


Just because McD's doesn't tell you how much more flavor is in your first or last bite doesn't mean you won't eat their Big Macs and like it anyways.


And if you think Big Macs are garbage, then you gotta wonder why McD's is still selling them after all these years, right? Is it really the marketing hype? Or maybe they actually taste great to those billions served?


Since there is no mandatory requirement or legislated standard for speaker companies to list the +/- X db rolloff measurements of their products, they tend to market specs according to whatever they think the public will buy. That's just business.


Ultimately, their success will not depend solely on the marketing materials but rather the testimonials of those who try, buy, like, and recommend them to friends and family.


You're definitely entitled to your opinion, if there's a factual basis for it. If you've owned a DefTech Supercube I and set it up correctly in your HT room and it doesn't live up to what was advertised, then by all means you're justified to denounce the product.


But claiming a product should be put in the garbage because the marketing materials don't read like a best seller perhaps isn't the best testing method. If the specs pronounce the product to be trash-worthy, then fine I can agree with your suggestion (a la white van speakers). But I believe the SC I has sufficient capability and does sound good for smaller to perhaps medium-sized applications.


And I'm not just referring to DefTech alone, but to any brand. Even the much-hated Bose is still in business even after all the bashing. Must be something about them that appeals to people to keep them chugging along, right? And it's not just marketing hype, since they offer a 30 day trial period for returns if you're not satisfied. I tried it, didn't like them, so I returned them.


No big deal. Others liked the sound and look of Bose speakers and kept theirs after the trial period. They're satisfied, so good for them.


As for the OP's question regarding placement of the SC I in a closed cabinet, I would have to say no in agreement because of the side passive radiators.


No harm in trying, though to see if you'll like the sound. I would think there would be more localized rattling and cabinet vibration by hiding it in the enclosure.


Can you not just put it behind the couch or unassumingly in a corner?


Good luck on finding the best placement to "hide" that sub.


And thirdeye, I'm not looking to start a feud with you by any means. Just want to set the record straight that we all don't necessarily find happiness with the same things. That's why there's more than one speaker company in business. And we can't discount the tastes of others just because the packaging is not pleasing to our eyes. It's the product we're paying for, right? Is the spec sheet for your speakers on display in your HT? I would think not, but the quality of sound is there for all to hear when you turn it on and our ears become the best judge of the product.


Cheers to you in finding your audio nirvana, regardless of what anyone else says about it.


Not a problem lodit. I actually sold DefTech products for about a year at the retail level amongst several other high end brands. That's where my experience comes from.


You are right that spec sheets do not always tell the full story. Definitive Technology grossly exaggerates their low end specifications. For example they state that the Mythos ST Super Tower will extend down to 14hz using only a powered 6" x 10" woofer. I can unequivocally state as fact that you cannot hear a 14hz tone on that speaker except maybe as something resonating in a very specific room whose resonant frequency is 14hz. The speaker itself cannot generate a 14hz tone audibly. It may generate the tone, but at what point? -10db? -20db? Even lower yet?


Regarding your statement that there are not any "mandatory" or "legislated" standards regarding speaker specifications you are absolutely right. There ARE however an accepted standard that people use to rate drivers and they're called Thiele/Small parameters, undoubtedly you've heard them called T/S parameters. Nearly every driver manufacturer on the planet agrees that these are a good set of "accepted" parameters and will publish them to anyone who wants to see them.


Most speakers as a whole of course don't publish full T/S parameters of all of their drivers, but a large majority of speaker manufacturers DO publish what their speakers F3 point is or where it is 3db down from the average of its frequency response, or arguably the "usable" response.


I'm also not wanting to get in any sort of argument, only stating my opinion on Definitive Technology and their business practices. Not everyone has to accept what MY opinion is as gospel, and I would hope that no one does. I didn't throw my opinion out there to be "challenged" but rather to at least get people thinking about what some of this information means.



Again to the OP, I meant no offense by my "joke".


-Chad
 

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if you email def tech, they will provide you with +/- 3db frequency response numbers for any product they sell. this is an email from def tech which was edited to reflect additional products added as different users requested info and posted them in the def tech thread:


Thanks for your most recent email to Definitive Technology. The

published specifications on our loudspeakers list their overall

frequency response. (This simply means that a given speaker will

respond to these frequencies.)


Unfortunately, not all +/- 3db frequency response specifications you'll

read are measured under the same conditions. (Meaning, the measurements

from one loudspeaker company may have been conducted under one set of

conditions, while the measurements from another company may have been

taken under a completely different set of conditions.)


There are no industry standards that all loudspeakers companies follow.

Specifically, where do you place the measuring microphone (on the floor,

or suspended directly in front of the speaker - and at what distance).

Where do you place the speaker, on a stand or on the floor. Do you take

room reflections into consideration? If you don't, it's difficult to

accurately measure a bipolar speaker.......


So, be careful when you compare specs from one company to another. If

at all possible, I'd recommend auditioning our loudspeakers (and any

others that you're considering) and trusting your ears.


With this in mind, we've measured the following specifications in our anechoic chamber:


trinity:.......................16hz +/- 3db


supercube reference:....18hz - 118 hz +/- 3db


SuperCube I: +/- 3db 20hz - 120 hz


BP-7000SC:.................20hz - 20khz +/- 3db


BP-7001SC:.................23hz - 20khz +/- 3db


BP7002: +/- 3db 25hz - 20,000 hz

BP7004: +/- 3db 27hz - 20,000 hz

BP7006 +/- 3db 29hz - 20,000 hz


SuperCube II: +/- 3db 25hz - 125 hz

SuperCube III: +/- 3db 29hz - 130hz


Mythos ST:.................24hz - 20khz +/- 3db


Mythos One:...............57hz - 20khz +/- 3db



SM350: +/- 3db 57 hz - 20 khz

SM450: +/- 3db 47 hz - 20 khz

ProSub 1000: +/- 3db 27 hz - 123 hz



BP30 : +/- 3db 22hz - 20khz

CLR2000 : +/- 3db 45hz - 20khz

BPX : +/- 3db 55hz - 20khz

BPVX : +/- 3db 48hz - 20khz


These measurements were taken with a microphone placed 1 meter away from

the front of the loudspeaker or subwoofer (which was placed on the

floor). There was no reflective sound from the walls. However, there

was a sound reflection from the floor.


Thanks,

Chet Pelkowski

Definitive Technology
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 /forum/post/15560844


...I can unequivocally state as fact that you cannot hear a 14hz tone on that speaker except maybe as something resonating in a very specific room whose resonant frequency is 14hz. The speaker itself cannot generate a 14hz tone audibly...

Which can be said about any subwoofer, given that humans can only "hear" down to ~ 20Hz.



Nonetheless, while I love my DefTech speakers, I do agree that their published specs are even more useless than most speaker specs.


I'd prefer they publish the specs that otk has quoted, even though I concur with their point that measurements published by one company cannot be compared with measurements published by another, and that no one should buy speakers based on published specifications. Unfortunately, customers insist on doing both, leading to contrived specifications in marketing materials (not just DefTech's).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 /forum/post/15562749


Which can be said about any subwoofer, given that humans can only "hear" down to ~ 20Hz.

Supposedly. I can't find any links recently, but I have read articles that state this to the contrary, and I can hear down to 15hz with my subwoofer without much issue. My microphone can hear it registering at 12 and 13hz but I can start to hear it at 15hz.


-Chad


otk: Thanks for the more accurate specs on Def Tech's products.

Macfan424: Couldn't agree with you more on wishing for more useful specs on DefTech products.


The problem I have with their published specs is that they don't even at least "try" to give the -3 points or how it was measured. Some manufacturers will do these things so the specs are more useful on a level playing field.
 

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probably the best piece of information in that email


"So, be careful when you compare specs from one company to another. If

at all possible, I'd recommend auditioning our loudspeakers (and any

others that you're considering) and trusting your ears."
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 /forum/post/15562980


Supposedly. I can't find any links recently, but I have read articles that state this to the contrary, and I can hear down to 15hz with my subwoofer without much issue. My microphone can hear it registering at 12 and 13hz but I can start to hear it at 15hz...

Microphones are a different matter (as are elephants
). However, 20Hz to 20kHz has long been the accepted standard hearing range for humans. (No doubt there are individual variations from the norm, as there are in all such things.)


Despite the longstanding acceptance of that as fact, there are those who agree with you, though. Here are some Frequency Range of Human Hearing citations from various sources.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 /forum/post/15563425


Microphones are a different matter (as are elephants
). However, 20Hz to 20kHz has long been the accepted standard hearing range for humans. (No doubt there are individual variations from the norm, as there are in all such things.)


Despite the longstanding acceptance of that as fact, there are those who agree with you, though. Here are some Frequency Range of Human Hearing citations from various sources.

Wow awesome! Thanks so much for the link. I've been looking for a good one for a long time.



Those figures go along well with what I can hear (with my equipment). I can hear from 15 hz - 18,400 hz. I used to be able to hear as high as ~21,500 hz but with age (I'm 31 now) that has reduced.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 /forum/post/15563425


Microphones are a different matter (as are elephants
). However, 20Hz to 20kHz has long been the accepted standard hearing range for humans. (No doubt there are individual variations from the norm, as there are in all such things.)


Despite the longstanding acceptance of that as fact, there are those who agree with you, though. Here are some Frequency Range of Human Hearing citations from various sources.

i have a 2 year old female boxer. one day i was playing around with sine waves on my computer


i was playing some in the high 30s because that's all my computer sub can handle. i could not locate them but my dog walked right up to the port on the sub and sniffed around. it was funny how fast her head turned to make eye contact with the port


it's also possible her ears were picking up distortion that human ears can't detect
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk /forum/post/15563966


i have a 2 year old female boxer. one day i was playing around with sine waves on my computer


i was playing some in the high 30s because that's all my computer sub can handle. i could not locate them but my dog walked right up to the port on the sub and sniffed around. it was funny how fast her head turned to make eye contact with the port


it's also possible her ears were picking up distortion that human ears can't detect

Most likely the latter, as dogs aren't supposed to be able to hear below 40Hz. Or maybe she is the canine answer to thirdeye11, and can hear lower than she is theoretically supposed to.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 /forum/post/15564261


Most likely the latter, as dogs aren't supposed to be able to hear below 40Hz. Or maybe she is the canine answer to thirdeye11, and can hear lower than she is theoretically supposed to.

yeah, i wasn't going below 36hz but the way she could instantly locate it was amazing
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 /forum/post/15560844


Not a problem lodit. I actually sold DefTech products for about a year at the retail level amongst several other high end brands. That's where my experience comes from.


You are right that spec sheets do not always tell the full story. Definitive Technology grossly exaggerates their low end specifications. For example they state that the Mythos ST Super Tower will extend down to 14hz using only a powered 6" x 10" woofer. I can unequivocally state as fact that you cannot hear a 14hz tone on that speaker except maybe as something resonating in a very specific room whose resonant frequency is 14hz. The speaker itself cannot generate a 14hz tone audibly. It may generate the tone, but at what point? -10db? -20db? Even lower yet?


Regarding your statement that there are not any "mandatory" or "legislated" standards regarding speaker specifications you are absolutely right. There ARE however an accepted standard that people use to rate drivers and they're called Thiele/Small parameters, undoubtedly you've heard them called T/S parameters. Nearly every driver manufacturer on the planet agrees that these are a good set of "accepted" parameters and will publish them to anyone who wants to see them.


Most speakers as a whole of course don't publish full T/S parameters of all of their drivers, but a large majority of speaker manufacturers DO publish what their speakers F3 point is or where it is 3db down from the average of its frequency response, or arguably the "usable" response.


I'm also not wanting to get in any sort of argument, only stating my opinion on Definitive Technology and their business practices. Not everyone has to accept what MY opinion is as gospel, and I would hope that no one does. I didn't throw my opinion out there to be "challenged" but rather to at least get people thinking about what some of this information means.



Again to the OP, I meant no offense by my "joke".


-Chad

"I actually sold DefTech products for about a year at the retail level amongst several other high end brands. Thats where my experience comes from."


The only DefTech product that approaches "high end" is the Trinity subwoofer. I would never consider any of their big dipoles with powered subwoofers "high end". Don't be confused between high priced and high end.


IMHO true high end begins with speakers like Aerial, Revel, Wilson (Watt-Puppy), etc.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/15564572


"I actually sold DefTech products for about a year at the retail level amongst several other high end brands. Thats where my experience comes from."


The only DefTech product that approaches "high end" is the Trinity subwoofer. I would never consider any of their big dipoles with powered subwoofers "high end". Don't be confused between high priced and high end.


IMHO true high end begins with speakers like Aerial, Revel, Wilson (Watt-Puppy), etc.

the term high end is relative. to some, they might consider a rolls royce a "high end" car while you may consider a bmw or mercedes to be "high end" once again, its all relative.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidc81 /forum/post/15565471


the term high end is relative. to some, they might consider a rolls royce a "high end" car while you may consider a bmw or mercedes to be "high end" once again, its all relative.

Absolutely. I also said I sold them alongside other high end products. I never classified any of Def Tech's items as being high end themselves. We had too many other good products.


Our store carried Meridian, Krell, B&W, Denon (some of their products are quite high end! and we carried them
), Rotel, Dynaudio, Mitsubishi, Lutron, Crestron, Fujitsu, Stewart, Runco, Sony, Bose (it took up 1 product on our floor), and a few others I can't recall off the top of my head. Some of what we carried was entry level, some was mid fi, and some was truly high end from anyone's perspective.
 

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i used to sell def tech also in a "high end" stereo shop back in the 90s


"high end" is a subjective label


i'll take the dynamics and large sound stage of my def techs over any of those "boutique" brands any day


we're just starting to see people sell off their beloved "high end" speakers for the likes of JTR because those "high end" expensive speakers are so wimpy in dynamics and sound stage


you can put all those "expensive" "high end" brands in the garbage can...HA HA HA, JUST JOKING
 
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