[anden2000]

Hi, I was every now and then struck by the dialogue not coming from the actors on the TV but from beneath it, or specifically from the center speaker. I tried disconnecting the center and going back to stereo sound to raise the dialogue. However then instead I got back the old problem of the voices coming from the sides of the TV instead, as soon as you are not seated straight in front of the TV. I googled dual centers and didn't find a lot of examples, so now that I went ahead and tried it I thought I would just share this example and say that I am very happy with the results. See attached picture. While it's not a huge change but rather a somewhat subtle one, I still appreciate it


I have experimented with connecting and disconnecting the upper center, and I perceive a difference not only in the "placement" of the sound but also in its profile. With both speakers, sound is bigger in some way, lacking any better description or ability to analyze the difference. It could also be that the receiver's calibration software, Pioneer MCACC Advanced, changes the levels so that I would have to re-run MCACC between every test, making back-and-forth comparisons impossible. I have also tried different listening positions and couldn't sense anything odd going on.


I chose to connect the center speakers in parallel. I decided initially to connect them in series, to achieve a combined impedance within the recievers recommended speaker impedances, 6-16 ohms. The center speakers, Monitor Audio Silver Center, each has 8 ohms claimed impedance, so the series impedance would be 16 ohms and the parallel would be 4 ohms. However, parallel connection was sligthly quicker to do and I thought the receiver's rating is probably conservative, so I decided to go parallel anyway. Works fine so far.


Having googled quite a bit on the topic of speakers in parallel and in series, I am still unsure about some of the technical effects other than moving the perceived position of the sound. What I concluded, right or wrong, for two identical, combined speakers as compared with a single speaker:

• Impedance doubles with series connection and is cut to half with parallel.
• Power capability is doubled.
• Sensitivity is unchanged (not sure about this one).
• Same tonal character. Not sure about this one either - it may be that there is a difference coming from there being two sources in space rather than one, in the same way as mono sound from stereo speakers sound different from mono sound coming from a single speaker.
• For the same sound level, parallel connection leads to 1.4 times (square root of 2) lower voltage and 1.4 times higher current for the amp. No change in power.
• For the same sound level, series connection leads to 1.4 times (square root of 2) higher voltage and 1.4 times lower current for the amp. No change in power.

I haven't perceived any of the potentially adverse effects on the amp or the sound so far - just the intended raising of the sound position.


Any technical or other clarifications or thoughts appreciated!

 

[pase22]

Having 2 center channels from what I understand is a bad idea. Your amp will get hot and risk going into protection mode and you risk lobing and sound cancellation from the 2 centers.
Your bottom center being on closed shelf will create muffled dialogue. If you wall mounted the TV or used TV riser, you can put the center on the top shelf where it should be. Doing this will likely clear up your dialogue intelligibility issue.

Your mains are too close to the walls and too far apart. If you can move the bookcase to a different wall, center the Tv more and bring the mains in about 2-3 feet, you'd likely get much better sound.

 

[Steve Kuester]

You are definitely driving your amp harder than it should be with a 4 ohm load. It might last 5 years, or something might overheat tomorrow.


I think that if you can do 2 things you will be much happier...


1. Move the TV stand (with TV and center speaker) so it is centered on that wall.


2. Pull your center channel as far forward on your TV stand as possible. The reason that it sounded like dialogue was coming from beneath the TV was because your center is too far back in that cabinet. Bring that speaker out so it is slightly AHEAD OF the tabletop that the TV is sitting on. That will open up the sound of your center channel in a big, big way.

 

[bargugl]

Although not always recommended to do two centers, many have done it successfully. However, if you can get it to work with one center, that would be best. As already mentioned, wall mount the TV. Move the center to the top of the tv stand and place at front edge. Buy a couple door wedges to place under center speaker to angle it up towards listeners ear level.

 

[taz0921]

Reply to Dual Center Channel Speakers

Your Dual Center Speakers is a great idea.

Since I have read for many years in various reputable Electronic and A/V publications that the Center Channel Speaker carries approximately 60% to 70% of the sound and dialog in the vast majority of Movies, I have taken this 60 to70 percent of sound and using a quality (Niles, Russound, etc) 4 Channel Speaker selector with volume control to ensure that my listening area has no dead spots as far as the dialog, and is crips and clear to my listeners.

I am running two Front Center speakers, two Side Center Speakers, and one Rear Center Channel Speaker and using the volume control on the Speaker Selector Switch, I have balanced the dialog so no matter where my guest(s) sit to watch the Video, they hear the dialog with no dead spots whatsoever, as long as they are seated in front of the Rear Channel Center. All of the speakers I use are designed to be used as Center Channel Speakers, who's design is predicated on being used as a Center Channel Speaker.

An additional positive feature I get by using the Speakers Selector Switch with Volume Control, I have customized my viewing room, and have also eliminated any load issues on my A/V Receiver since the Speaker Selector converts and maintains the load to each of my Center Channel Speakers at a constant 8 ohms, to avoid excessive load on my equipment.

I have been running this configuration for over 5 years with no heat or overload problems, and I am using quality speakers, 14 gauge copper wiring, and a higher end A/V Receiver.

So your worry about the overload problem on your equipment can be resolved by purchasing a quality 2 Channel Speaker Selector with or without the volume control feature for just two speakers.

Happy listening!

 

[JonfromCB]

Anden 2000, You have a lot going on there. Steve's post is right on, and I will elaborate. Recommend you read the "Basic speaker setup FAQ" thread at the top of the "speaker" section on this forum. Read the three links listed under point 3. and/or Google "surround sound speaker placement". In a nutshell, humans automatically triangulate HF sounds which is a basic premise to surround sound speaker placement and achieving proper width, depth, placement and movement in the playback soundstage. In order to achieve that, speaker placement is not only critical...it is very unforgiving! When speaker placement is correct, our brains automatically associate what we hear with what we see. Your "off-set L/R" arrangement, not being symmetrical to your display is the larger part of why your center sounds appear to be coming from somewhere else, as well as having your center speaker enclosed on a shelf with a huge height difference between your center high frequency driver and the HF drivers on your L/Rs. It's basic stuff and easy to fix once you understand human hearing and why surround sound speaker placement is critical... Placing speakers where it's convenient rather than where they should be is the main reason so many systems sound bad and why there are so many on this forum who feel the need to upgrade their center channel speakers to improve their systems. Good surround sound is like real estate...location, location, location! Some of the best, most accurate surround sound I've heard was achieved with relatively modest speakers simply because they were placed perfectly. Even the best speakers cannot ensure better surround sound...albeit better speakers typically provide higher fidelity. It is important to know and understand the difference between a good surround sound stage and the sonic characteristics of various speakers...they are two entirely different things.

Two centers will not fix your soundstage issue....it just masks the issue that has been annoying you. Now you are trying to triangulate HF sounds from two badly placed center channels which might appear to get the height of your dialog as being correct, but assuredly worsens the accuracy across your soundstage, especially the accurate placement and movement of sounds that are now so accurately engineered into almost all source material.

Get your L/C/R high frequency drivers on plane at listening level and get your display centered relative to your L/R and you should be amazed.

 

[Alan P]

I'm assuming the CC that is below the TV is the one you were having trouble hearing...? If so, I agree with the others that a simple reorientation of that speaker would probably solve the intelligibility issues you were having.

I have experimented with connecting and disconnecting the upper center

Have you experimented with disconnecting the lower center? I'd be willing to bet that the upper center alone will sound fantastic being that it is positioned much better than the lower one is.

 

[anden2000]

Thanks everyone for the feedback! Many good advice and interesting thoughts.

Overheating: I would not think the amp gets any hotter, not even by a single degree? Heat comes from power, not amperage, and I believe my amp draws the same power now as before when there was only one speaker. Now the two speakers each consume half as much power as a single one would alone. The only difference is that voltage on these speakers is now 1.4 times lower and current 1.4 times higher. The receiver may have amperage and voltage limits, but that is not the same as heat. Either way, I have tried running the system very loud, at ear protection level, and there weren't any clipping.

Listening position / lobing: I did try listening at different positions, and didn't notice any difference to the earlier sound or different positions, except perhaps a somewhat "fuller" sound.

Intelligibility / muffled sound / soundstage issue / trouble hearing: I haven't perceived any issues at all with the sound or the dialogue from the single center speaker, other than that the sound didn't sound like it was coming right from the person speaking in the movie but rather from the speaker located under the TV. And that's no surprise to me, since that's where the sound is indeed coming from. Having the speaker behind a sound transparent TV would have solved this, but that's not possible here.

Move out the lower center as far as possible: I did try that now, and I am not sure how much of difference I heard, maybe some tonal difference, but I'll keep it a bit more out and experiment more. However, I didn't feel the sound source moving any bit upwards by doing it.

Mains far apart; TV and centers not centered between mains: Yes, they are indeed far apart. However, my usage is 2/3 stereo music and for that I feel the wider placement makes sense, perhaps compromising the movie situation a bit. And yes, centering the TV between the mains would improve front speakers balance around the TV, but that book/disccase is a family acceptance factor and something I will probably not be able to fix I am glad I was able to do away one drawer to fit the sub!

Mains close to walls: Good point. I will experiment with the main speaker positions relative to the walls.

Put high frequency drivers on plane with listening level: The mains have those drivers aligned with the center of the TV, just like the middle point between the center drivers.

Try upper center only: Good idea - I just tried that now, and I think it's actually an improvement over the single lower speaker. It is slightly closer to the TV, which may partly explain the difference. Here's an additional observation: The further away from the TV, the smaller the difference between the setups. At very long distance, it's difficult to hear the differences, but the closer I move the clearer the difference. Upper-only lets me go a bit closer before the sound is appearing off the TV, than lower-only. With dual centers, I can go way too close before sound is off the TV.

 

[Alan P]

Now, angle that upper speaker down a bit so it is pointing at your head while seated and you will be golden.

Sell off/return the lower speaker and put the money into something else!

 

[anden2000]

Now, angle that upper speaker down a bit so it is pointing at your head while seated and you will be golden.

Sell off/return the lower speaker and put the money into something else!

In order to get a second opinion I just asked my teenage daughter for assistance. I started a dialogue section of a movie and altered between different setups. I placed her at THX recommended min/ideal and max distances (40 degrees viewing angle and 27, respectively), and simply asked her where she thought the sound is coming from, without her knowing about the setup. The results:

Lower only:
Max distance: "From the screen or that lower speaker"
Min/ideal distance: "From that lower speaker"

Upper only:
Max distance: "From the screen"
Min/ideal distance: "From that upper speaker"
I tried this setup with the speaker flat as well as tilted down, with same results.

Lower and upper:
Max distance: "From the screen"
Min/ideal distance: "From the screen"

Those distances may be on the short side for TV's, and make more sense with projector screens, however I imagine hearing the off-centered sound at longer distance than my daughter

We also tested separately to tilt the upper speaker, by listening (again to dialogue) while the helper tilted it down and back repeatedly. Neither me nor my daugther could hear any change in the sound. Could be the type of dialogue (Bond and villain offering little treble) or the room or I don't know what, but we didn't hear it. I'll tilt it anyway.

Another observation I made is that the dual speaker effect requires that the viewing/listening position is somewhat close to the middle height between the dual centers. It happens to be so in my setup. If standing up or sitting on the floor, the effect isn't working as intended, as you mostly hear the speaker closer to you and thereby perceive the sound coming from closer to that speaker than the other.

My conclusion is that dual centers makes sense when:
* you don't have a projector screen that you can put the center behind, and
* you are viewing from relatively close distance, and
* you can install the centers so that your listening height is nearly the same as the middle of the center heights

Not saying I am done testing

 

[kfh227]

Your Dual Center Speakers is a great idea.

Since I have read for many years in various reputable Electronic and A/V publications that the Center Channel Speaker carries approximately 60% to 70% of the sound and dialog in the vast majority of Movies, I have taken this 60 to70 percent of sound and using a quality (Niles, Russound, etc) 4 Channel Speaker selector with volume control to ensure that my listening area has no dead spots as far as the dialog, and is crips and clear to my listeners.

I am running two Front Center speakers, two Side Center Speakers, and one Rear Center Channel Speaker and using the volume control on the Speaker Selector Switch, I have balanced the dialog so no matter where my guest(s) sit to watch the Video, they hear the dialog with no dead spots whatsoever, as long as they are seated in front of the Rear Channel Center. All of the speakers I use are designed to be used as Center Channel Speakers, who's design is predicated on being used as a Center Channel Speaker.

An additional positive feature I get by using the Speakers Selector Switch with Volume Control, I have customized my viewing room, and have also eliminated any load issues on my A/V Receiver since the Speaker Selector converts and maintains the load to each of my Center Channel Speakers at a constant 8 ohms, to avoid excessive load on my equipment.

I have been running this configuration for over 5 years with no heat or overload problems, and I am using quality speakers, 14 gauge copper wiring, and a higher end A/V Receiver.

So your worry about the overload problem on your equipment can be resolved by purchasing a quality 2 Channel Speaker Selector with or without the volume control feature for just two speakers.

Happy listening!

pics or build thread?

 

[bluewizard]

Anything can be done, and even some very odd things will be liked by somebody.

Series/Parallel -

Parallel speakers give higher output by about +3db, which is double the power. But the impedance is lower. How well that low impedance will work will depend on the specific amp. Apparently, your amp specifies 6 ohm to 16 ohm, which means you are pushing your luck.

Series speaker are the same loudness as a single speaker, but they accomplish that volume with half the excursion and half the power consumption. The impedance in this case goes up.

I'm going to assume those speakers are Monitor Audio Silver Series.

The Silver Center is rated at -

8 ohms

90 db Sensitivity

The Monitor Audio Silver 8 (2x6.5", 1x4" Mid) are rated at -

4 ohms

90db Sensitivity

Can you confirm that these are your speakers?

However, when you have to speaker putting out the exact same sound, there is the potential for Timing Issue, Comb Filtering, and other negative effects. For timing, that is based on the distance from the listeners ear to each speaker. If the distance is 3" different, then the sound from one speaker will arrive 0.25ms later than the sound from the other speaker. Whether that is enough to matter is debatable, but it can make the sound a bit blurred and less focused.

Comb Filtering is related to interference patterns caused by to identical sounds some distance apart. Comb Filtering will cause small dips in the Frequency Response across the spectrum that resemble the teeth of a comb -

https://www.google.com/search?safe=...jmmM#safe=off&hl=en&tbm=isch&q=comb+filtering

Using light to illustrate the same effect, in this case it is called Interference Patterns. As the wave radiate out from each source, at some points the waves overlap in a way that re-enforces, at other locations, the waves are destructive and cancel each other. Unlike Peaks and Nulls, or Standing Waves, the Interference Patterns happen on a much smaller scale.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=....0....0...1.1.64.img..5.18.2688.0.QLhIkPT0f9A

From my experience the negative effects of Interference Patterns diminishes with distance. For example, using two pair of speakers, in my place, the sound is better at 25ft than it is at 10ft.

In my case also, I make a trade off. For movies I have both Pair of Speakers On (stereo, no sub), and what I gain in one area offsets what I lose in another area, so while the interference is there, it is balanced off by benefits.

In your case, we need to confirm the difference in the Straight Line distance from your ear to each Center speaker, and the specific brand and model of speakers, and AV Receiver.

Steve/bluewizard

 

[sivadselim]

Amplifier concerns aside, there is really nothing wrong, acoustically, with 2 center channel speakers in that arrangement (vertically flanking the screen). Lobing and comb filtering between two such speakers will occur in the vertical plane. That said, it shouldn't really be necessary, either. As others have opined, the lower speaker pictured is not optimally positioned/placed. I, too, suspect that the upper speaker, alone, would sound superior to the lower one, alone, even though its tweeter may be further from being aligned with the L/R speakers' tweeters than the lower speaker's tweeter is. Of course, it is possible that the two speakers, together, may sound, in one's opinion, better than just the upper speaker.

BTW, a speaker located above the plane of one's ears is (generally) less localizable than one located below the plane of one's ears. And the less localizable the speaker, the greater will be the desired illusion that its sound is coming from the screen.

 

[Stainz]

I have a modest *5.0 HT comprised of six Infinity Primus P363 towers, with two in series-aiding (*) as the center channel. They are located slightly ahead and on either side of the 55" monitor. Next, going outward, are my 7' tall bookcases, followed by the respective front L & R P363's, two more of which are located at the back as L & R surrounds. It started life as just four P363's with my antique Klipsch KV-2 as CC, but the timbre mismatch was too noticeable - and the mounting of it below the monitor made the dialogue sound like it was coming from the ground-fore ground. I retired the KV-2 and bought three more P363's, two of which were acquired by my wife for her office stereo. The third P363 was placed between the monitor and bookcase on the right side and connected as the center channel. Great timbre match, of course, but decidedly lopsided in dialogue sourcing. We watched 'Master and Commander' and the revamped 'Star Wars' BRD's and noted the great bass - then noticed that the Polk PSW-505 was still turned off - the bass was from the ten 6.5" LF drivers! I found my eighth P363 and ordered it - at $107, it was the most expensive P363 I had bought (The rest were $89-$99 - all Amazon Prime!). I had to pull the sub out from between the left side of the monitor's base and the right hand side of the left side bookcase to make room for my second CC speaker. My wife was elated to see '... that ugly box' leave and liked the balanced look the four towers made across the front. Another plus for her... she now has six tower tops to place her seasonal decorations on!

I've tried a kitchen chair at 5' in front of the monitor (Too close - I needed reading glasses to view the scenes!), moving my head side to side and back and forth, barely detecting white noise CC source peaks and valleys. This blended together by 8' - and 'in use' tests at 10-12 feet from the plane of the monitor and speakers, my recliner & sofa location, the CC dialogue now sounds like a centered wall of sound - a continuum. I'm happy - as was my wife when we loaded that sub in my son's car recently. The P363's are known to average ~ 6 Ohms, thus the series aiding connection. The speaker wire used throughout was Monoprice white sheathed #12 pure copper.

 

[darthray]

Here is a little bit of help about how angle a center speaker.


Use the one you can work with, and as mention before sell the other one.
But first as mention, you should try to put your left and right speakers, close if not perfectly equal to the display area, since this is where your center will be, either above or below.


Then angle your center speakers, following those step by step instructions (work for most situations).




-First, go get yourself a cheap laser pointer, a flat one if possible.
-Then put-it on top of one of your main (does not matter which one, since they are both the same height).
-Point at your listening area.
-Put a piece of tape to mark the position.
-measure with a ruler the distance from the top of the speaker to the center of the tweeter.
-Go back to your piece of tape at your listening area and subtract that distance going down.
-Put a new piece of tape and remove the first one.


-Now do the same for the center speaker with a little difference.
-First measure the distance from the top of the center speaker to the center of the tweeter.
-Go back to your main listening area.
-Remember piece of tape #2
-now take the distance from the top of your center to the center of tweeter and go up from the piece of tape #2 to that distance.
-put piece of tape #3 , and piece of tape #2 can be remove if you like, since it was the distance of your main tweeter.
-put the laser pointer on top of your center
-adjust angle until the light hit that piece of tape (#3 ).


Now you're done, all tweeters should hit the main listening position at the same height (for the main listening position)."


Also, Make sure your center speaker is sticking out of the cabinet by about an inch.
Sound reflection from the edge of a cabinet can play havoc on your sound.

Move your audio/video cabinet, to be more center to your main, follow those instruction, and you will be Golden
All the best and Good Luck.


Ray

 

[anden2000]

Your Dual Center Speakers is a great idea.

Since I have read for many years in various reputable Electronic and A/V publications that the Center Channel Speaker carries approximately 60% to 70% of the sound and dialog in the vast majority of Movies, I have taken this 60 to70 percent of sound and using a quality (Niles, Russound, etc) 4 Channel Speaker selector with volume control to ensure that my listening area has no dead spots as far as the dialog, and is crips and clear to my listeners.

I am running two Front Center speakers, two Side Center Speakers, and one Rear Center Channel Speaker and using the volume control on the Speaker Selector Switch, I have balanced the dialog so no matter where my guest(s) sit to watch the Video, they hear the dialog with no dead spots whatsoever, as long as they are seated in front of the Rear Channel Center. All of the speakers I use are designed to be used as Center Channel Speakers, who's design is predicated on being used as a Center Channel Speaker.

An additional positive feature I get by using the Speakers Selector Switch with Volume Control, I have customized my viewing room, and have also eliminated any load issues on my A/V Receiver since the Speaker Selector converts and maintains the load to each of my Center Channel Speakers at a constant 8 ohms, to avoid excessive load on my equipment.

I have been running this configuration for over 5 years with no heat or overload problems, and I am using quality speakers, 14 gauge copper wiring, and a higher end A/V Receiver.

So your worry about the overload problem on your equipment can be resolved by purchasing a quality 2 Channel Speaker Selector with or without the volume control feature for just two speakers.

Happy listening!

That's interesting. Could you share more details about the setup, like how are things connected?

 

[anden2000]

In your case, we need to confirm the difference in the Straight Line distance from your ear to each Center speaker, and the specific brand and model of speakers, and AV Receiver.

The fronts are indeed Monitor Audio Silver series, but model 10. The receiver is a Pioneer VSX-924. I have taken a calculated risk, having read Silver 10 tests suggesting its impedance is actually a bit higher than the claimed 4 ohms. I have tested maxing out the volume (had to wear workshop ear protectors), and I can at least say that worked without any obvious sound degradation. Nevertheless, I envision a bigger receiver in the future.


Regarding the centers, I intend to test series connection which should put the center load within the receiver's impedance specs.


When watching movies, we are spread our irregularly over an area about 1.5-4 m (5-13 ft) from the screen, and 3 m (10 ft) wide.

 

[anden2000]

Amplifier concerns aside, there is really nothing wrong, acoustically, with 2 center channel speakers in that arrangement (vertically flanking the screen). Lobing and comb filtering between two such speakers will occur in the vertical plane. That said, it shouldn't really be necessary, either. As others have opined, the lower speaker pictured is not optimally positioned/placed. I, too, suspect that the upper speaker, alone, would sound superior to the lower one, alone, even though its tweeter may be further from being aligned with the L/R speakers' tweeters than the lower speaker's tweeter is. Of course, it is possible that the two speakers, together, may sound, in one's opinion, better than just the upper speaker.

BTW, a speaker located above the plane of one's ears is (generally) less localizable than one located below the plane of one's ears. And the less localizable the speaker, the greater will be the desired illusion that its sound is coming from the screen.

That's in line with what I found when testing the upper speaker only versus the lower speaker only - the upper was better at making the sound appear to coming from the actors talking. Even though the upper one has the advantage of being closer to the screen, I suspect the effects you describe also added to it. A small downside for the upper one is that it's perhaps a bit more obstructive from a furnituring point of view, but that's a matter of taste.

 

[anden2000]

I have a modest *5.0 HT comprised of six Infinity Primus P363 towers, with two in series-aiding (*) as the center channel. They are located slightly ahead and on either side of the 55" monitor. Next, going outward, are my 7' tall bookcases, followed by the respective front L & R P363's, two more of which are located at the back as L & R surrounds. It started life as just four P363's with my antique Klipsch KV-2 as CC, but the timbre mismatch was too noticeable - and the mounting of it below the monitor made the dialogue sound like it was coming from the ground-fore ground. I retired the KV-2 and bought three more P363's, two of which were acquired by my wife for her office stereo. The third P363 was placed between the monitor and bookcase on the right side and connected as the center channel. Great timbre match, of course, but decidedly lopsided in dialogue sourcing. We watched 'Master and Commander' and the revamped 'Star Wars' BRD's and noted the great bass - then noticed that the Polk PSW-505 was still turned off - the bass was from the ten 6.5" LF drivers! I found my eighth P363 and ordered it - at $107, it was the most expensive P363 I had bought (The rest were $89-$99 - all Amazon Prime!). I had to pull the sub out from between the left side of the monitor's base and the right hand side of the left side bookcase to make room for my second CC speaker. My wife was elated to see '... that ugly box' leave and liked the balanced look the four towers made across the front. Another plus for her... she now has six tower tops to place her seasonal decorations on!

I've tried a kitchen chair at 5' in front of the monitor (Too close - I needed reading glasses to view the scenes!), moving my head side to side and back and forth, barely detecting white noise CC source peaks and valleys. This blended together by 8' - and 'in use' tests at 10-12 feet from the plane of the monitor and speakers, my recliner & sofa location, the CC dialogue now sounds like a centered wall of sound - a continuum. I'm happy - as was my wife when we loaded that sub in my son's car recently. The P363's are known to average ~ 6 Ohms, thus the series aiding connection. The speaker wire used throughout was Monoprice white sheathed #12 pure copper.

Nice! Do you perceive any difference in the center channel sound depending on your side-wise listening position?

 

[anden2000]

Here is a little bit of help about how angle a center speaker.

I want to keep the main speakers apart, since I am mostly listening to stereo music and movie sound is secondary.


Like I described, I did test different tilt angles, however I'll probably keep testing and will consider the methods. I am certainly pulling out that lower center a bit.