AVS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
286 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·

So the deal is I have a chance to buy a pair of Outlaw LFM-1 EX in Toronto for $1000. I already have a PB12 NSD which I was planning on doubling up on later. However, after reading about the Outlaw, there seems to be no one who could directly compare them.

 

The supposed differences from those topics that I've gathered is this:

 

PB12 NSD

 

-Has more power at 400w with greater output

-Goes down to 18hz

 

Outlaw LFM-1 EX

 

-Goes to 16hz 

-has more control over the bass

-350w bash driver

 

 

Now I am really conflicted here. The Outlaw actually digs deeper than the ported PB12 NSD? According to SVS, it would take the PC13+ to do something similar. 

Considering that Outlaw is superior in bass extension and control (supposedly), my only concern is the output. Does the Outlaw really output at significantly lower levels?

My room is 4000 cubic feet, sealed, with the longest length being 28'. I get a very powerful performance from my NSD's already. I was also told that dual subs, when positioned apart to smooth out performance will only provide a roughly +3dB boost. 

 

So the question is, how does 2x Outlaws perform in terms of output compared to a single PB12 NSD? Would I be buying two Outlaws to equate to similar output from a single NSD?

 

If the Outlaws can give me a significant boost over the single NSD I would be fairly happy because:

 

1)The ports are down firing hence safer from my son

2)Way more attractive finish for my wife

3)Looks smaller? But I'm not sure. I am kind of assuming this because it looks like the sub is a sealed sub and not ported. Strange because I thought sealed subs don't dig as deep as the ported. 

 

 

 

 

Please let me know if I am sacrificing significant output in this situation. I can buy my second PB12 for another $500 so its essentially the same price either way. Please advise!

 

Also, a question regarding dual sub positioning. I was told that you could gain almost 6dB by placing the subs together. Considering I only really have a small listening position that is for me and my wife, I can't imagine room smoothing to be all that paramount and feel like I should just place them to maximize output for my specific position? 
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,533 Posts
The performance of the two are quite close according to data-bass. Look at the measurements page for one of the subs, then choose the other from the "System Measurement Comparison" drop-down menu:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=66&mset=71


The LFM-1 EX was tested in both 1 and two port modes, so you'll want to run the comparsion twice. Check out the "Maximum Long Term Output" comparison charts for both modes. Looks to me like the Outlaw is a wee bit better...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
286 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Wow, that was very helpful. If that chart is accurate, it says that the Outlaw LFM1 EX actually significantly outperforms the PB NSD while in 1 port mode. It has a 5 SPL advantage in the 16-20hz range and an even larger output advantage in higher ranges...

 

Now I am confused. Seems like the Outlaw is just a plain better sub. I was also clearly mistaken about it being sealed... Kind of makes my choice obvious now. 

 

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
75" Samsung Q80R QLED, Denon AVR3300, Revel F36, C25, W263, FV15HP x 2, ATV4K, Sony Blu Ray, Harmony
Joined
·
8,695 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3  /t/1525585/dual-outlaw-lfm-1-ex-vs-dual-svs-pb12-nsd-at-same-price#post_24561854


The performance of the two are quite close according to data-bass. Look at the measurements page for one of the subs, then choose the other from the "System Measurement Comparison" drop-down menu:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=66&mset=71


The LFM-1 EX was tested in both 1 and two port modes, so you'll want to run the comparsion twice. Check out the "Maximum Long Term Output" comparison charts for both modes. Looks to me like the Outlaw is a wee bit better...
This is either sarcasm, or you are not interpreting the data correctly.  The Outlaw has double or close to double the output from 30-80 Hz in two port mode.  Not saying it is an all around better sub, or that it is twice as good, but the Outlaw crushes it above 30 Hz in output in both one and two port modes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DNZone

·
Banned
Joined
·
8,744 Posts
To the SVS's credit, its deep bass output is cleaner, at least vs the Outlaw in one port mode. But the Outlaw does get all around louder, and really rocks in two port mode.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,533 Posts
The Outlaw is a better performing sub. If the OP has an opportunity to get two for $1K, that sounds like a mighty sweet deal. I'd put 'em both in 1 port mode & enjoy. The "wee bit" characterization may have understated the difference a wee bit...
 

·
Registered
75" Samsung Q80R QLED, Denon AVR3300, Revel F36, C25, W263, FV15HP x 2, ATV4K, Sony Blu Ray, Harmony
Joined
·
8,695 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DNZone  /t/1525585/dual-outlaw-lfm-1-ex-vs-dual-svs-pb12-nsd-at-same-price#post_24561742

 

Also, a question regarding dual sub positioning. I was told that you could gain almost 6dB by placing the subs together. Considering I only really have a small listening position that is for me and my wife, I can't imagine room smoothing to be all that paramount and feel like I should just place them to maximize output for my specific position? 
Doubling drivers and power = 6 dB.  This is a law of physics.  The stacking rule is poorly understood.  One sub in the corner will give you a poor frequency response and uneven bass throughout your room.  Stacking a second equivalent sub in the same location will increase output by 6 dB across the entire poor frequency response of the single sub.  Bad peaks will be six dB higher, as will the nulls and everything in between.  

 

Spreading the subs will smooth out the frequency response, and with good placement, will still give you 6 or close to 6 dB average at the MLP.  Now, at a peak, you may get no increase, but you might gain 10-12 dB where you are correcting a null.  So here is a more accurate assesment.

 

Stacking subs increase your bad response by exactly 6 dB across the entire FR.

 

Spreading dual subs with proper placemengives an average increase of 6 dB as well, or very close, and gives a much improved, smoother FR.

 

Suggestion:  Order the Outlaw, download REW from hometheatershack, order a Umik-1 mic from miniDSP for about $100, and set up your subs properly my measuring the room 
 
  • Like
Reactions: DNZone and shadyJ

·
Registered
75" Samsung Q80R QLED, Denon AVR3300, Revel F36, C25, W263, FV15HP x 2, ATV4K, Sony Blu Ray, Harmony
Joined
·
8,695 Posts

Word of caution though, and why I recommended REW and a mic:  poorly placed dual subs can make a bad FR worse.  And other than going with placement options that in general tend to be good, does not guarantee it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DNZone

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,684 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123  /t/1525585/dual-outlaw-lfm-1-ex-vs-dual-svs-pb12-nsd-at-same-price#post_24562051


One sub in the corner will give you a poor frequency response and uneven bass throughout your room.

Actually, corner placement is "usually" the best spot to put a single sub. I know in my room (14x13) it works well there and from a lot of reviews, the reviewers that mention their sub placement usually have them in a corner.


IMO poor frequency response has more to do with the sub not being tuned for a flat response, so any humps in the response sometimes get magnified by corner placement. One of the reasons I chose a SVS sub was because of the flat response knowing it was going in a corner.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DNZone

·
Registered
75" Samsung Q80R QLED, Denon AVR3300, Revel F36, C25, W263, FV15HP x 2, ATV4K, Sony Blu Ray, Harmony
Joined
·
8,695 Posts

Taken out of context, you are correct.  However, I was addressing the op's question as to how he should place dual subs.  So in context, my statement is accurate, that a single sub placed in a corner(the optimal placement for a single sub), will have a bad frequency response compared to adding a second sub spread out in an optimal location.
 

·
Registered
75" Samsung Q80R QLED, Denon AVR3300, Revel F36, C25, W263, FV15HP x 2, ATV4K, Sony Blu Ray, Harmony
Joined
·
8,695 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62  /t/1525585/dual-outlaw-lfm-1-ex-vs-dual-svs-pb12-nsd-at-same-price#post_24562222



Actually, corner placement is "usually" the best spot to put a single sub. I know in my room (14x13) it works well there and from a lot of reviews, the reviewers that mention their sub placement usually have them in a corner.


IMO poor frequency response has more to do with the sub not being tuned for a flat response, so any humps in the response sometimes get magnified by corner placement. One of the reasons I chose a SVS sub was because of the flat response knowing it was going in a corner.
A flat response outdoors, although not bad, most likely has little impact with whether or not you get a flat response in room.  In my situation for example, I would have benefited from a sub with a peak in the response at 50 Hz due to a null at 50 Hz.  A sub with a flat resonse would be worse.  But yes a peak response could end up being made even worse...its a shot in the dark.  I just don't think a flat response, which is often artificially achieved with eq at the expense of headroom in order to make graphs look prettier for marketing, necessarily translates into better performance or a flatter response in room.  I'll take all the headroom I can get without built in eq that eats up headroom, and just eq the peaks down.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,480 Posts
If you want to trade clean deep bass output for more 30hz on up bass then get the EX's....if you want solid extension and output into the 16-18hz area at the cost of 30-80hz bass then add another NSD. The EX is extremely underported in 1 port, but is a solid performer in 2 port. I would probably go dual EX's in 2port mode because they will still extend to around 22hz and have a significant amount of headroom over the NSD above 30hz.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
286 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Strange as that does not seem to conform with the chart I just viewed. Is there some hidden factor I am not considering? It seems the LFM1 outperforms the SVS at all ranges.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,480 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DNZone  /t/1525585/dual-outlaw-lfm-1-ex-vs-dual-svs-pb12-nsd-at-same-price#post_24562404


Strange as that does not seem to conform with the chart I just viewed. Is there some hidden factor I am not considering? It seems the LFM1 outperforms the SVS at all ranges.

Yea you are not looking at all the data...go into the extended charts tab and Look up thd, long term compression and compression magnitude sweep. You will see the NSD is much cleaner and has much less compression vs the EX in 1port. How much of that is audible once the sub is placed in room is subjective. Based on 2m rms groundplane the NSD fairs better in clean deep bass output.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,495 Posts
Ok so I have never heard the PB12NSD or the Outlaw LFM-1 EX, BUT I own 2 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus's. I run them in 1 Port Max Extension Mode, I run them 6 db hot and I have NEVER had issues with them being under ported, meaning I have never heard either one of them chuffing or making any kind of wierd noise. I have run them both up front and I have run them with 1 up front and one as an end table and I have had them running with one up front and one right behind the corner of my L shaped sectional couch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DNZone

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,480 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru  /t/1525585/dual-outlaw-lfm-1-ex-vs-dual-svs-pb12-nsd-at-same-price#post_24564166


Ok so I have never heard the PB12NSD or the Outlaw LFM-1 EX, BUT I own 2 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus's. I run them in 1 Port Max Extension Mode, I run them 6 db hot and I have NEVER had issues with them being under ported, meaning I have never heard either one of them chuffing or making any kind of wierd noise. I have run them both up front and I have run them with 1 up front and one as an end table and I have had them running with one up front and one right behind the corner of my L shaped sectional couch.

I agree flick but according to ShadyJ cea2010 ground plane measurements are all that matters....Your in room review is purely subjective and has no bearing. According to the data, the EX-1 is severely port limited in 1port, but with duals now you can reach the max burst levels of a single with 50% cone excursion. now you have effectively cut thd and compression in half. Factor duals in room and now you have reduced thd and compression by 75% compared to a single being messured in a 2m rms ground plane scenario. Again that does not mean much because again according to ShadyJ outdoor measurents are all that matters.


I hope you are picking up my Sarcasm here.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
8,744 Posts
I have never said outdoor measurements are all that matters. I have said indoor measurements don't matter when different subs are being compared in different rooms.


Yes, the Outlaw is a bit underported, not hugely underported, but it could definitely benefit from larger ports. Since the Outlaw's ports are down-firing, and since the Outlaw sits so low to the ground, the port noise could easily be if the chuffing isn't that severe or if a lot of other noise is going on. However, prop the sub on its side so the driver/ports are facing you, and you can hear the chuffing much easier. Trust me, I have done this myself, or don't take my word for it and run the tests yourself. Prop the sub up so the ports are facing you, and run this test tone . Start it off quietly at first, and gradually turn it up. It won't be long before you start to hear that pff pff pff sound. It will chuff in either mode.


Don't run those tones very long at a high volume. That can endanger your driver. Don't run the Outlaw with both ports open when the single port mode is selected, that is also dangerous.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,684 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123  /t/1525585/dual-outlaw-lfm-1-ex-vs-dual-svs-pb12-nsd-at-same-price#post_24562293


A flat response outdoors, although not bad, most likely has little impact with whether or not you get a flat response in room.  In my situation for example, I would have benefited from a sub with a peak in the response at 50 Hz due to a null at 50 Hz.  A sub with a flat resonse would be worse.  But yes a peak response could end up being made even worse...its a shot in the dark.  I just don't think a flat response, which is often artificially achieved with eq at the expense of headroom in order to make graphs look prettier for marketing, necessarily translates into better performance or a flatter response in room.  I'll take all the headroom I can get without built in eq that eats up headroom, and just eq the peaks down.

How do you know a sub with a flat response would have been worse at 50Hz? Does your XS30 have a pronounced bump at 50hz like many cheap consumer subs do? I don't think so.


EQing a flat natural response into the sub is not for making "pretty looking graphs for marketing purposes". That's an ignorant statement. As for better or flatter in room response, if you start with a flat response you're 100% more likely to have one in room than if you did not start with a flat response.


As for headroom, what do you think happens to your headroom when you EQ the peaks down? That type of EQ doesn't come free.


I
 

·
Registered
75" Samsung Q80R QLED, Denon AVR3300, Revel F36, C25, W263, FV15HP x 2, ATV4K, Sony Blu Ray, Harmony
Joined
·
8,695 Posts

Well, I don't think eq'ing a peak down necessarily reduces headroom.....this frequency will easily play as loudly as the sub is capable of playing as the other frequencies that were not eq'd down.  In fact, I would think that at max output, even if eq'd flat at low SPL, you would still maintain the headroom at that frequency after you start to compress in areas that were not eq'd down.  So for instance if you eq a down a peak at 40 Hz by 5 dB, and the sub reaches max output at 30-50 Hz and begins to compress, you would still have 5 dB of headroom at 40 Hz left if you turned it up a bit more, or if a loud effect were called for demanding a higher peak at that frequency.

 

 

 

Now a sub that has a lot of positive eq to achieve a nice flat looking fr graph for marketing purposes, will run out of headroom very quickly on the bottom end where the eq was applied.  Such as a SB1000, which has eq to make it look flat to 23 hz or whatever, but will start compressing around anything over 90dB or so of output due to the eq applied.  That's what I meant.  Of course at low volume this won't happen, but for watching movies where you get 20 dB spikes in the LFE channel at low frequencies, this is where especially the small inexpensive sealed subs that are eq'd flat run out of output rather quickly.  This is my understanding anyways.

 



 



 

The first sub, with the less flat FR, is one of the best sealed subs made...the Seaton Submersive.  The flatter, "better" looking FR, is the $499 SB1000.  How did it get such a flat looking FR on paper...with lots of eq on the low end.  Now which sub do you think will run out of headroom first?  Obviously the much cheaper sub because this is a ridiculously unfair comparison, but the point is that a response that is forced flat with a lot of eq outdoors is not likely to help the sub be flat in the correct sized room.  In some cases it might but in many cases it won't.  Most good quality subs will prefer a rolloff without a lot of eq applied to make a graph look pretty, as room gain will tend to naturally flatten out the response once in room.  Here is an example:

 

Natural frequency response of the XS30:



Notice that this sub, with two 15" drivers and more than double the power, appears to have nowhere as flat of a FR as the very small 12" SVS sub.  But look what happens in a 2525 cu. ft room with no eq applied below 20 Hz:



 

I am not saying a sub with a good native frequency response is bad.  I'm just saying that a sub with too much eq to make it appear flat groundplane does not necessarily or even likely, translate into being flat in room.  Allowing a sub to have a natural bell shaped output curve is likely to allow more headroom.
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top