[BOER]

I need (help) to decide between dual SVS PB1000 Pros or a single PB2000 Pro (or equivalent type sub) for my living room.

I cannot accommodate dual PB2000 Pros even if I wanted to- my space doesn’t physically allow for a second. I can however, just, accommodate two pb1000 pros. A single PB2000 Pro will also be a stretch for WAF given how big it is lol!

I’m currently leaning towards the dual pb1000 pros, simply because of an odd room layout that I think would benefit from more spreaded, equal bass.

My plan was to obtain one pb1000 pro, do some measurements with REW/Umik1, and judge from that how much a second would benefit the response across the seats.

The problem I have in Australia is that once I buy either, I cannot return it like you lucky US folk we also dont have HSU, PSA subs here.

Link to my room layout
Link

Main use is movies. I don’t really listen at crazy volumes, usually have the volume on my AVR (Denon x1500h) between -8 to -25 from reference ‘0’ for movies, source material dependant.
I’m coming off a small 8” Wharfedale dx-1 sub (rear ported) I just sold so im sure either will blow me away at first.

I have never taken measurements (umik arriving next week), but where my previous sub was placed (S1 in the link, back left corner) was found using the crawl method and it did produce some decent bass for what it was to the MLP. The two spots marked in the link (S1, S2) are the only two possible spots for a sub in my space.

Thanks

 

[mthomas47]

I need (help) to decide between dual SVS PB1000 Pros or a single PB2000 Pro (or equivalent type sub) for my living room.

I cannot accommodate dual PB2000 Pros even if I wanted to- my space doesn’t physically allow for a second. I can however, just, accommodate two pb1000 pros. A single PB2000 Pro will also be a stretch for WAF given how big it is lol!

I’m currently leaning towards the dual pb1000 pros, simply because of an odd room layout that I think would benefit from more spreaded, equal bass.

My plan was to obtain one pb1000 pro, do some measurements with REW/Umik1, and judge from that how much a second would benefit the response across the seats.

The problem I have in Australia is that once I buy either, I cannot return it like you lucky US folk we also dont have HSU, PSA subs here.

Link to my room layout
Link

Main use is movies. I don’t really listen at crazy volumes, usually have the volume on my AVR (Denon x1500h) between -8 to -25 from reference ‘0’ for movies, source material dependant.
I’m coming off a small 8” Wharfedale dx-1 sub (rear ported) I just sold so im sure either will blow me away at first.

I have never taken measurements (umik arriving next week), but where my previous sub was placed (S1 in the link, back left corner) was found using the crawl method and it did produce some decent bass for what it was to the MLP. The two spots marked in the link (S1, S2) are the only two possible spots for a sub in my space.

Thanks

Hi,

If you are sure that you won't be able to accommodate a second PB-2000 Pro, then I like your plan to start with a single PB-1000 Pro and let REW help you to decide how much a second subwoofer will help. As you already noted, either model will blow you away compared to what you had. (If I were you, I would make a cardboard box the size of a PB-2000 Pro to be absolutely sure that it won't fit. Or, you could also consider a PC-2000 Pro, which has a cylindrical shape with a smaller footprint.)

I converted your room size to feet in order to make it easier for most of us to visualize. It is approximately 14' by 21'. Assuming an 8' ceiling, your room size is about 2,350^3. That is a fair size room, and I think that you will want two subwoofers--if not now, then later. Obviously, starting with a bigger subwoofer would be advantageous, which is why I would double-check the practicality of having dual PB-2000's, or of having one PB-2000 and a PC-2000.

Since you have partial walls returning in all four corners of the room, you should get decent room gain at a little above 20Hz. Even though you have openings to other spaces, as long as your subwoofers and your listening position are reasonably close together, which they are, you should be able to get good low-frequency bass.

Dual PB-1000 Pro's will exceed a single PB-2000 Pro at frequencies above about 35Hz. The principle advantage of having dual PB-2000 Pro's will be for frequencies below 50Hz. The larger cabinet volume, and the slightly lower port tune, give the PB-2000 Pro an advantage within about an octave or an octave-and-a-half of its port tune.

Otherwise, the two subwoofers are pretty comparable from about 50Hz up. (The PB-1000 Pro is actually more subwoofer for the money compared to the PB-2000 Pro.) You can compare the frequency responses and max output capabilities of the two subwoofers below, and that should help you to decide where your priorities lie:

SVS PB-1000 Pro and SB-1000 Pro Subwoofers Conclusion

SVS has totally redesigned their entry-level powered subwoofers in the PB-1000 Pro and SB-1000 Pro. Our review reveals these subs go well beyond entry-level performance. Read on to find out how.

www.audioholics.com

SVS PB-2000 Pro Subwoofer Conclusion

SVS completely revamped their 2000 series with the release of their 2000 Pro subwoofers. We can report that the 2000 Pro subs are far more improved than just adding a smartphone app. Read on.

www.audioholics.com

I think that there is a very good chance that you will be very happy with dual PB-1000 Pro's! But, long experience on AVS has taught me to encourage people wanting to upgrade to go as large as they think that they may need to go, with subs that they can reasonably accommodate and afford. Our bass preferences may not be static over the long term. And, once we are exposed to better low-bass, we may find ourselves wanting even more of it.

Regards,
Mike

 

[badtlc]

Do in room measurements to find out if your two locations work together. If not then do one larger sub.

 

[BOER]

I think that there is a very good chance that you will be very happy with dual PB-1000 Pro's! But, long experience on AVS has taught me to encourage people wanting to upgrade to go as large as they think that they may need to go, with subs that they can reasonably accommodate and afford. Our bass preferences may not be static over the long term. And, once we are exposed to better low-bass, we may find ourselves wanting even more of it.

Hi Mike, thanks so much for the detailed response, really appreciate it. Unfortunately, the spot marked for the second sub has a 'depth' problem and also a 'height' problem (built in shelf into brick wall). If I really fight it I could move the shelf higher, but the depth issue will be a big fight for the WAF. I think I will still make a box to see how it might look. The PC2000 Pro could be an option there - will try to suss it out.

Yes correct, my room is about ~2,400^3 , and that extends even further if you count the adjacent dining room (which I am unsure of if I should, given I can place the first sub pretty close to the MLP). You are right about buying the biggest you can afford. At this stage, if I get a PB2000 Pro, I would not be able to add a second for quite some time (budget wise). However, I don't usually pump my system to ridiculous levels, so I THINK the 325RMS of the PB 1000 Pro should suffice (even more so if there is two). But again, I will be very new to 'better' subs, so it is hard for me to say without hearing it in my room of course and I am sure even the PB1000 Pro would blow me away at first.

Do in room measurements to find out if your two locations work together. If not then do one larger sub.

Thanks for the reply. Yes this is my plan- unfortunately I am 'subless' at the moment, so I either have to try borrow one from a friend (a small Yamaha 8") or wing it with the PB1000 Pro. I'm trying to negotiate a return policy from a store, so hopefully that would come through.

Am I right that I should place the sub where the second will be, and see waht the measurements show and 'overlay' it to the first's to see if it would help iron out nulls etc.? Or do their response become unpredicable once you add a second?

 

[hopefullguy]

hi mate not sure what city you are in but i would look at some 2nd hand subs as well. there is a psa 15" on gumtree that is interesting and could be a nice starter.

unfortunately you can get 2 x1000 pro's for 1x 2000 pro so imo with your room and your posts so far 2 x pb2000 pro's wont ever be in your budget. so i would consider the 15" if possible, if not just get 1x pb1000 pro to start with and go from there.

 

[hopefullguy]

sorry forgot to mention the PC option.. i have an older 20-39pc and while it has a "small" foot print it does not just magically fit where you want. it is down firing so needs a good/solid base and it stands out unless you hide it in a dark corner. i would argue it is NOT as accommodating placement wise as a normal sub.. period.

 

[BOER]

sorry forgot to mention the PC option.. i have an older 20-39pc and while it has a "small" foot print it does not just magically fit where you want. it is down firing so needs a good/solid base and it stands out unless you hide it in a dark corner. i would argue it is NOT as accommodating placement wise as a normal sub.. period.

Hey, thanks for the reply. Lockdown makes second hand very difficult atm, but thanks for that PSA suggestion- just looked it up. Re budget for 2x PB 2000 Pros...yes, won't be able to get both now, but could add a second down the track. My problem is more physical space to fit a second big sub Yes, I just measured the PC2000 and it won't work in my second spot- would never get WAF approval. It has quite a large diameter/height. I'd be able to squeeze a PB1000pro in my second spot.

 

[Oohahh]

I would recommend the REL HT1205. Price wise in Australia would in between the other two you are looking at.

 

[BOER]

I would recommend the REL HT1205. Price wise in Australia would in between the other two you are looking at.

Thanks, any particular reason why? Doesnt seem to dig as low as the pb1000 pro but it might have better mid bass?

 

[COmusic]

I think your sub positions look fine. You want asymmetrical for best dispersed bass and one is in a corner to take advantage of those room nodes and amplification. (Check out Distributed Bass Array.) Having two subs in your room will be far bettter than one for home theater, or audio. (And three is better, then four; then stop.) I'd let mains run full (unless you need volume) and low pass very low, and your subs will disappear with bass in between your mains.

I imagine the REL is a better sub as a single than the SVS. I own two older REL subs and three new SVS subs (SB-2000x2 and SB-3000, all for audio only and want a fourth).

 

[Deaf-Forever]

Thanks, any particular reason why? Doesnt seem to dig as low as the pb1000 pro but it might have better mid bass?

REL would be near or at the bottom of my list. As you correctly noted, it doesn't dig as deep.

 

[Kini62]

I would recommend the REL HT1205. Price wise in Australia would in between the other two you are looking at.

It has nowhere near the output under 30hz. Not really a good choice for a decent size room for HT.

 

[Oohahh]

Thanks, any particular reason why? Doesnt seem to dig as low as the pb1000 pro but it might have better mid bass?

On paper or real world Auditioning? I used the later before I purchased.

 

[BOER]

Update for anyone interested: I got a SVS PB1000 Pro, and put it pretty much in the same spot as my previous sub (back left corner, almost in line with the couch and facing it). The seller said I can see how I go with it, and if I want I can send it back for a PB 2000 Pro, or just buy another PB 1000 Pro.

i have not had time to properly integrate it- but did a quick and dirty Audyssey run and played some music/put on a few scenes.

well, it definitely hits hard and low, and I couldnt wipe the smile off my face. The bass is so much cleaner than my previous sub. It’s almost like my ears need to readjust to ‘clean’ bass. It, unsurprisingly, opens up the soundstage and everything just sound soooo much cleaner and more open. Whilst this is by no stretch a top of the line sub, I can say a ‘proper’ sub makes a HUGE difference to the sound and overall experience. I also tested the opening scene of Edge of Tomorrow (first time hearing it) and holy ****- do NOT have the volume high when you do, it’s insanely loud low frequencies lol- stuff vibrated in my kitchen! I think the sub bottomed out (i think i heard port noise) and i was bit worried, but after reading up about that scene jt seems you really need BIG boys to handle it. Anyway!

i will do some extensive testing this weekend to see what frequencies the sub in the second position could potentially help with, even if it's just an indication as I know when 2 subs play together there is summation and subtraction etc. I used REW for the first time a few nights ago and here are the results of my first ever sweep- red is with Audsyssey off, blue with it on. I have a Denon x1500h, and MultEQ XT really shows its limitations here compared to the better XT32 version. I dont think ive got everything properly set up but was happy to get a sweep out. Early analysis suggest problems at the crossover region to look into, but otherwise it looks quite workable for a start....(Havent applied any PEQ yet).

Will post sweeps of the second position for comparisons this weekend.

 

[BOER]

Update for anyone interested: I had a chance to do some REW sweeps and sub positions. The verdict is that I managed to get a pretty good and flat FR at the MLP using the PEQs on the SVS app and adjusting the sub distance on the AVR...
As expected, measuring across more seats showed a bigger fluctuation from that flat curve, so duals (properly integrated) would definitely result in a smoother FR across the other seats.
From these measurements it's leading me to go dual PB 1000 Pros (and probably get a miniDSP down the track)...

Here is my FR at the MLP after Audyssey and PEQ via the app (with left speaker engaged):

The response after default Audyssey (purple) and after I played around with a foot increase in sub distance in the AVR (green) to find found a sweet spot at 18.7f, up from Audyssey's 12.7f setting. It looks like it fixed major dips near the crossover point. This is before applying PEQ. Sub playing with left speaker.

Here is the FR (at MLP) of the sub in its current position (red) vs sub position 2 (purple), which is where the second sub would be located. This is without any Audyssey and PEQ and left speaker. Not sure how to judge this one, but it looks like there might be benefits of smoothing near crossover point and between 20-40Hz.

This is the sub in main position, after calibration, across the 3 seats on the big couch. Shows just how different it can be. MLP (red), left side of couch (green) and right side of couch (blue).

 

[BOER]

If you are sure that you won't be able to accommodate a second PB-2000 Pro, then I like your plan to start with a single PB-1000 Pro and let REW help you to decide how much a second subwoofer will help.

Unfortunately I cannot accommodate a second PB2000 Pro physically- the space where the second sub goes is barely fitting a PB1000Pro. I outlined above some measurements I was able to take after obtaining a PB1000 Pro. I now have the option to either get a second, or send it back in exchange for a single PB2000 Pro. My hunch is telling me duals based on the above...decisions

 

[mthomas47]

Unfortunately I cannot accommodate a second PB2000 Pro physically- the space where the second sub goes is barely fitting a PB1000Pro. I outlined above some measurements I was able to take after obtaining a PB1000 Pro. I now have the option to either get a second, or send it back in exchange for a single PB2000 Pro. My hunch is telling me duals based on the above...decisions

Hi,

Good work, and I completely agree with your hunch! I think that you are getting an excellent frequency response from your single PB-1000 Pro. You are also getting pretty decent extension below 20Hz, and a second subwoofer will add to your SPL across the board. Looking at your third graph, where you overlay the current subwoofer position and the second subwoofer position, a second PB-1000 would nicely compliment the one you have. You can see that where red goes down, purple goes up, and vice-versa. That is just what you want, and it is before any phase adjustments or room EQ. I would get the second PB-1000 Pro if I were you!

Regards,
Mike

 

[badtlc]

Here is the FR (at MLP) of the sub in its current position (red) vs sub position 2 (purple), which is where the second sub would be located. This is without any Audyssey and PEQ and left speaker. Not sure how to judge this one, but it looks like there might be benefits of smoothing near crossover point and between 20-40Hz.

Dont guess. You can know for sure as long as you used "acoustic reference timing" on your sweeps. Use the REW alignment tool to combine the two locations and adjust the delay on one location until you think you found the best combination. it only takes one sub and REW to find out exactly what two subs in different locations will do.

 

[BOER]

Good work, and I completely agree with your hunch! I think that you are getting an excellent frequency response from your single PB-1000 Pro. You are also getting pretty decent extension below 20Hz, and a second subwoofer will add to your SPL across the board.

Thanks Mike. I had a question re the EQ and FR setup for bass in the ~20 -> 80Hz region, and this might be worthwhile to create a new thread for so please let me know if so. But is my understanding of the following correct?

(This is after finding optimal speaker/sub placement etc.)
1. I run the Audyssey process. My last run returned the sub level at -11.5dB in the AVR (this is by setting the gain on the PB1000 Pro to -10 as per SVS's default instruction).
2. I measure the FR in REW (using Umik-1) and I do this with Audyssey 'Reference' enabled, but with Dynamic EQ off.
3. I then fine tune the FR (using the 3 PEQs on the SVS app) to try create as flat FR as I can (at the 75dB measured mark), from ~20->80Hz.
4. I then attempt to fine tune the crossover 80Hz region by adjusting the sub 'distance' via the AVR, playing sweeps with the sub + L, and found 18.7ft (up from the defaulted 12.7ft) to seriously smooth out dips near 80Hz.
5. I go back into my AVR, enable Dynamic EQ and boost the sub level by ~3dB to -8.5dB.

Now, my questions are...
1) If I plan on using DEQ, am I right in saying I should try to EQ the sub response flat (i.e. without a house curve as DEQ does that when im not on reference levels?)
2) If I plan on using DEQ, should I leave the sub level in the AVR post Audyssey?
3) Is -11.5dB for the sub post Audyssey too low on the AVR, i.e. should I turn the gain on the sub down before I run Audyssey to try return a higher level?

Thanks

Dont guess. You can know for sure as long as you used "acoustic reference timing" on your sweeps. Use the REW alignment tool to combine the two locations and adjust the delay on one location until you think you found the best combination. it only takes one sub and REW to find out exactly what two subs in different locations will do.

This is awesome, thanks! REW is awesome.
I've also read that there is a program (MSO) that can take REW measurements and find the optimal delay/gain with two positions for you, definitely looking into that as well.

 

[mthomas47]

Thanks Mike. I had a question re the EQ and FR setup for bass in the ~20 -> 80Hz region, and this might be worthwhile to create a new thread for so please let me know if so. But is my understanding of the following correct?

(This is after finding optimal speaker/sub placement etc.)
1. I run the Audyssey process. My last run returned the sub level at -11.5dB in the AVR (this is by setting the gain on the PB1000 Pro to -10 as per SVS's default instruction).
2. I measure the FR in REW (using Umik-1) and I do this with Audyssey 'Reference' enabled, but with Dynamic EQ off.
3. I then fine tune the FR (using the 3 PEQs on the SVS app) to try create as flat FR as I can (at the 75dB measured mark), from ~20->80Hz.
4. I then attempt to fine tune the crossover 80Hz region by adjusting the sub 'distance' via the AVR, playing sweeps with the sub + L, and found 18.7ft (up from the defaulted 12.7ft) to seriously smooth out dips near 80Hz.
5. I go back into my AVR, enable Dynamic EQ and boost the sub level by ~3dB to -8.5dB.

Now, my questions are...
1) If I plan on using DEQ, am I right in saying I should try to EQ the sub response flat (i.e. without a house curve as DEQ does that when im not on reference levels?)
2) If I plan on using DEQ, should I leave the sub level in the AVR post Audyssey?
3) Is -11.5dB for the sub post Audyssey too low on the AVR, i.e. should I turn the gain on the sub down before I run Audyssey to try return a higher level?

Thanks



This is awesome, thanks! REW is awesome.
I've also read that there is a program (MSO) that can take REW measurements and find the optimal delay/gain with two positions for you, definitely looking into that as well.

Hi,

You are welcome! If you have a lot of questions, you might want to post on the Guide thread in my signature. Reading at least the Cliff Notes at the beginning of the Guide may also be helpful.

I think that numbers 1, 2, and 4 are correct as you have stated them, and it sounds as if you got good results. As a general rule, I would be sparing about my use of PEQ to further flatten the frequency response, post-Audyssey. Try comparing what you see in a FR graph to what you can actually hear. If you had a small peak in the 60-70Hz range, for instance, you might find that you prefer that. That's about the range where most people feel the chest punch sensation.

It's also better to pull down peaks than to try to pull-up dips, beyond whatever Audyssey has already done. Boosting dips in the frequency response consumes subwoofer headroom, and not all dips (or peaks) make an audible difference in the sound anyway. That's why taking your time to experiment with what you can actually hear can be helpful.

As for your use of DEQ, with an additional subwoofer boost, that is strictly a listener preference issue. Based on long experience on the Audyssey thread, most people probably listen at a master volume of about -15 to -20. At that average volume level, they will typically add about +3 to +6dB on top of DEQ, and they will typically add a little more than +6dB if DEQ is not engaged. But, those are just generalizations. This entire question of master volume level, in combination with DEQ, and/or with independent subwoofer boosts, is a YMMV issue.

You just have to experiment to decide what you like, and it may change depending on the content. It may change with movies versus music, for example, or it may change with specific movies or with content from different sources. Don't be afraid to experiment with your sound, and specifically with your bass, in exactly the way that you would if you were seasoning your food. What tastes (or sounds) good to me today?

Regards,
Mike