[Curt Palme]

I'm not going to hijack Raster's thread, but Paul (gn2) and I have been hashing this one out for a bit..


I used to own, and have sold a bunch of DVDO doubler in the past. V 1, V 2, PRO's, etc. I've never really paid close attention to the overall quality, and since I use NEC's now (IPS 4000, IPS 4000Q), I haven't personally used a DVDO in about 3 years.


I remember using an older NEC IDC 1000 and 2000, and found them to be soft as compared to the DVDO's.


So for the benefit of other newbie CRT owners out there on a budget, can you guys comment on the pros and cons of the DVDO's vs NEC vs the cheapie scalers out there (

 

[gn2]

Curt: I've A/B'd the DVDO with the NEC on the same equipment running at the same time, the NEC's blow the doors off the DVDO's, sorry. Also, the NEC's have real controls over the image, ie. brightness and contrast controls that actually work(not virtually useless pot controls). The ONLY thing a DVDO has over an IDC is the ability to take component, which I would give no value to, since even with component input, the DVDO's output is awful by comparison.

NEC"s are NOT soft either, they are one of the sharpest line doublers available, and they have a sharpness control that actually works for the first few notches.

I've owned virtually every brand doubler made, including Faroudja, and always come back to the NEC's.

Another thing NEC's do well, they seem to ignore MPEG artifacts really well when doubling regular satellite sources.

The NEC doublers were OEM'd by Runco for a reason, they were very good.

 

[Curt Palme]

INteresting, I really did find the NEC's soft. That was on a PG projector with new tubes.


I agree, the switching and control over the pix was better on the NEC, but I liked the overall pix on the DVDO better. I'll see if I can't score a 1000 or 2000 and A/B it again one day.


I disagree however, NEC made the doublers for Runco, I'm sure of it!


Curt

 

[gn2]

Quote:

I disagree however, NEC made the doublers for Runco, I'm sure of it!

Thats exactly what I meant, did I get the order mixed up or something ? Runco put their badge on NEC doublers for three generations of the product for a good reason, the doublers made by NEC were the BEST, Runco switched to Faroudja sourced doublers when NEC did too...(LD200).

Curt, when you do your a/b'ing, make sure you use the "sharpness" pattern from Video Essentials, or DVE, it'll tell the story.

 

[alyle5864]

I have been using a Zinwell Briteview and it puts out a pretty good image for the price. Drew Pachard has seen it in action and he agreed.

 

[Doug Baisey]

Guys,

I'll make a comment here because I think its a good subject to post about.


My preferences are against the DVDO Im afraid, They do what they say but nothing close to a pro systems processor.


My main observation is the lack of processing I guess, it just doesnt have the 'feel' that I like to see or the nice smooth control or image that you would hope for. Upscaling NTSC falls far short for sure.


I have only seen the HD model a couple of times but I do see the Pro, V2 quite a bit. In my opinion its a consumer product in a pro market.


The one advantage is auto detect for ease of use but I dont see this as being justified with the signal quality or the control you would expect. Its ok for the wife and kids to use to get the image up but its a far cry from a well engineered processor.


Call it being spoiled if you may but its my opinion. The IDC series and esp the 2-3000 are a great doubler for what you can buy them at used.


The NEC IPS 4000Q is still one of the nicest that I have seen but a quad unit is its application.


The cable that came with the IDC 1000 in my opinion was not up to snuff (dialectic) but was nice and flexable. This didnt have a contrast pot like the newer ones but still did what you expected. The IDC 2000 had the brightness and contrast on the front and IDC 3000 had nore inputs. If you have a choice go for the 3000 first, 2000 second 1000 third.


If you have a well set up projector dialed to the max you will see what Im referring to when you use the controls. I like it set where I cant adjust from the knobs so have to go back into the projector.


The advantage to the DVDO is the warranty but the NECs are pretty dependable and solid performers. They do beat the 'cheeze block' and a few others. I have seen a few 480P DVD players do better then the V2 but it still serves a purpose and I havent had to replace one. Doug

 

[Peteybob35]

So what models of the NEC would you reccomend to a newbie on a budget?


Stu

 

[mrigsby]

As with the gentleman up above, I use the Zinwell Brite View BLS-2000 75mhz scaler. It's an outstanding piece of equipment that produces an outstanding picture.

 

[Doug Baisey]

Stu,

On a budget and if you dont have a DVD player yet you may be in better shape going with a Momoitsu 880 that has the VGA out and no transcoder needed. If you just need a doubler the IDC 2-3000 but getting harder to find.


The LD200 (NEC, Runco, Faroudja based) will be quite a bit more and harder to find. Doug


Curt,

One thought, on the IDC it has a 'Through' video port that must be terminated, from the factory it has a small chain and 75 ohm terminator attached but they get lost. If not terminated it will look soft and flushed out. I have seen this left open on service calls and its a whole different image when terminated.

 

[transilvania]

I am using DEUCE SDQ with my ECP 4101. This is a Scaler/Doubler/Quadrupler with S-Video And VGA out priced at around $600. I feed S-Video from TV/SAT and Componend from DVD. I am using it as a scaler at 1024 x 768, it resolves any format and is very stable.

 

[gn2]

The S-video needs to be terminated too, on the IDC-1000, I've found. If I run without the output going to my tv-tuner card of my computer, its wayyyy too hot, ruins the doubled image.

As for which IDC to choose, as of now, I'd personally choose the 1000 because it can usually be gotten a bit cheaper, and it has complete IR control over all picture functions. I find my sources vary enough that I need to adjust contrast/brightness on the doubler quite frequently. The IDC-2000 has contrast/brightness pots on the front, and the 3000 hides their access in a "service" menu. For best picture, its likely the 3000 that really makes the best image, but they are all good.

I'll be able to tell you about an LD200 in the next few weeks....

 

[Marshall F]

Doug, have you (or anoyone else here) used the Samsung SIR TS360? I know Pete and Clarence are going to A/B this unit (with a DVD player hooked up) versus a Momitsu.


Marshall

 

[Doug Baisey]

Marshall,

On a few ocassions but not to a point of seeing the quality. The one I wanted to use failed new out of the box at a customers house so had to use a reference generator for the set up. Going back to do with the replacment thats a Sony HD300 thats outdated by one model.


I hear it does upsampling ok and a plus but I would like to follow that A/B also. Doug

 

[Marshall F]

Yes, I've rerad some reviews (not here) that they are not the most reliable. Hope that's not the case as I'm getting one!


I just couldn't pass up the versatility it offers of acting as a transcoder, upsampling, and OTA HD receiver.


Marshall

 

[DaveInVA]

Marshall,

I am using a Samsung 360 with a NeuNeo HD DVD player connected to the 360 VIA component. It works great and rivals my HTPC to the point I may retire it. The NeuNeo has VGA, component, svideo and composite outputs and will output 1080i, 720p, 576P, 480P, and through VGA only 480X640, 600X800, 1024X768 and 1280Z1024. I almost bought a Mumitsu but decided to give this unit a try. It does not have the customizable resolutions though but was only $231 delievered and I think it has better Dacs. I have not A/B's the Samsung 360 with any other HD receiver. Mine was flakey like many other 360's but it hasnt failed since the last firmware upgrade was done a few days ago. It doesn't offer neg sync so if you have a Barco like me you must go through an Extron or similar or use port 3 with a custom cable. So far I am very happy with the PQ and will do more A/B with my HTPC soon as I want to determine whether I really want to keep using the PC for anything or not.. To bad the Samsung does't have VGA INPUT....


Dave

 

[Marshall F]

Thanks, Dave - that's very helpful. I guess you subscribe to DTV? The Samsung doesn't have negative sync output as an option?


I will be running this to an NEC 6PG+. Doug, any problems with running this to the NEC given the positive sync? I've run my computer to PG using pos sync, and didn't have any issues. Is the negative sync preferred? I'd be running VGA out from 360 to rgbvh to NEC.


Thanks, Marshall

 

[Doug Baisey]

Marshall,

The NEC likes neg neg but you shouldnt have a problem. I did note a s-curve problem at a specific freq that was some what corrected using neg neg sync.


If you note the vesa standards right at the 480 to 600P mark it changes from neg neg to pos pos sync. This was more of a problem in the earlier models when laptops ran vesa standards after they became popular over desktops and they ran higher refresh rates that changed the polarity.


I had a tack on fix that changed the timing just enough to get rid of it.


I dont think it will be a issue if you enter the signal under temporary and not default. It was rare. Doug

 

[flyingvee]

Dunno how I missed this thread, since I am always in the market for a cheap processor, but,....Paul - would have to disagree with you. Have the Runco 3050 (which is a rebadged NEC something - 2000 I think,) and a DVDO Iscan Pro. Much prefer the DVDO thru my 980 Ultra (btw guys, am I supposed to call this an NEC PG something here?) - got the Runco doubler with the Runco pj.


Fair enough, the Runco/NEC doubler is built like a tank, lots of switching, has a remote, but the Iscan has component (which looks pretty good to me) and a better picture. Runco 3050 looks way soft to me- I already have a crt to get the "filmlike" display, I don't need added mush. With my setup, it adds softness, much like when you defocus an LCD pj to hide the SDE.


I would gladly sell my NEC anyone - or could I trade it to you Curt, for something good?

 

[DocNyr]

Has anyone tried this? or know about this product?

http://www.viewsonic.com/pdf/product...isionN6.r2.pdf


Thanks

 

[Marshall F]

Quote:

Originally posted by Doug Baisey Marshall, The NEC likes neg neg but you shouldn't have a problem. I did note a s-curve problem at a specific freq that was some what corrected using neg neg sync.

If I am just using the 360 and the 6100, would I have the option of using neg neg sync? Did you correct it using a sync converter?

Originally posted by Doug Baisey
If you note the vesa standards right at the 480 to 600P mark it changes from neg neg to pos pos sync. This was more of a problem in the earlier models when laptops ran vesa standards after they became popular over desktops and they ran higher refresh rates that changed the polarity.


I'm not sure I understand this. By Vesa standard, do you mean the vesa input on the projector? Are you sayng that a 480 signal would work fine, but if you changed the resolution to 600, that the PJ would sync up using a different input that was programmed for pos pos?



Quote:

Originally posted by Doug Baisey I dont think it will be a issue if you enter the signal under temporary and not default. It was rare. Doug

I've deleted all other inputs and started fresh a la Tinman / Feathers guide, and per your suggestion too, I think. And you say this so that corrupted data isn't transfered to the new input, correct?


BTW, this will be the only input on the projector, so would I have only one input? Would you suggest running at 780P or 1080I, or would it depend on the source, IE: DVD player through the 360, vs. OTA HDTV?


Thanks again,


Marshall