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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ran through some of the new DVE disk tonight and here are some of the things I've learned, more to follow.


A caveat, I'm connected via component.


First of all, Gamma 4 is definately the optimal choice for shadow detail. There is a still shot in the trouble shooting section for contrast of a bright sky over a shadowed foreground. If you look in the left center of the foreground on gamma 4 you can make out 3 patches of brown earth. step down to zero ignoring three as you go, and the three patches disappear into a flat blak matte.


using the user menu only so far. I can not get uniform blue/red/grenn on the color bar when viewed through the filters. will fall off on the gains in the SM and write back.


overscan is apparent on this disk. the screen ceners around 5% (safe action). but with y at 0 there are a couple of clicks more beyond five at the bottom of the screen than at the top. There is also a rise from left to right so that the 5% line nearly touches the bezel on the left side of the screen and is a coupleo' clicks above it on the right.


Also DVE actually puts a lot of its titles and graphics outside the 5% marker depite these marked "safe" limits. thought that was a little funky


Sharpness control:

from a distance I thought I could see edge enhancment changes as I increased sharpness. When I moved up really close to the screen I couldn't see the change. but trusting the view from a distance I set shapness to 28 where I imagined a change.


All the user menu settings come out a lot lower than I had eyeballed: contrast is still suspect as I'm having the most difficulty adjusting it.

color 42

brightness 55

contrast 75

tint 35


more later... back to it.

jb
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
update on overscan. seems like the y limit needs to be 2. Otherwise I've noticed a periodic bright purple line at the top on the screen on the DVE DVD and The Hunted last night. That further puts the image off center favoring the bottom of the screen by about five button clicks.

jb
 

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Man, how can your tint be so off? I have not heard of anyone having their tint more than a few points on either side of 50/50.


I just got my DVE yesterday, so I'll probably start playing with it. I'm quite curious to try out your findings with gamma. It could be for that *particular* scene 4 was better, but it seems that the guys who have used colorfacts almost universally agree that 0 provides the flattest gamm response curve. I seemed to get improvement using 0 as well. But, Samsung chose 4 for some reason, so who knows...
 

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I just started trying to calibrate my HLN567W (2.14) with DVE and noticed the following:


I seem to have a green problem. When I view the colorbars through the green filter my three green-containing colors are definitely not matching the background. My blue is dead-nuts-on, and my red's not bad... but my green looks wacky.


Anyone know how to fix this?


Also... is anyone else rather unimpressed with DVE? I find the menus to be quite a pain in the ass and the patterns to lack thorough explanation in some cases. Just wonderin'... :)
 

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Echo the question: What DLP do you have? or are we to assume it's a Sammy HLN?


Sammy DLP question: What are people setting sharpness to? The dancing text is driving me nuts... is there some other (SM) tweak that helps?


DVE Question: Does DVE come with red, green, blue filters? I'm assuming it does, but I checking since I thought the original VE only came with blue...


Thanks,

Jon
 

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It does come with red, green, and blue filters.


I also noticed that the green was way off when compared to the red and blue. I wasn't sure what to do about it.


On my Sammy HLN567W DLP I have set sharpness to 10. I couldn't tell any difference between 0 and 100, so I went with a low number.


I am using the Bravo D1 with DVI and my overscan was about 2.5%.


I was also very confused about the contrast setting. Many people report having it set to about 90, but I had to set it closer to 65 to make it look right with the grey step ramp test pattern. I have my GAMMA set to 0.


-Rob




Quote:
Originally posted by jb510
Echo the question: What DLP do you have? or are we to assume it's a Sammy HLN?


Sammy DLP question: What are people setting sharpness to? The dancing text is driving me nuts... is there some other (SM) tweak that helps?


DVE Question: Does DVE come with red, green, blue filters? I'm assuming it does, but I checking since I thought the original VE only came with blue...


Thanks,

Jon
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
sorry. set from first post is hln507w with firmware v302.


tint was left over from my AVIA setup to adjust for a 15% Red push. it worked here so I left it. (although I obviously still have a red problem.) i've seen a lot of tint settings at 40/60 and 35/65 by the way. In fact, i took that for the generally agreed upon range.


color gain did not smooth the color bars unless I set it really high and I guess over saturated the screen with a particular color. i tried adjusting the offsets as well and slightly smoothed the differences but still have color problems.


DVE says there are often controls for setting Grey (color temp) anyone interpreted any of the SM choices to be a color temp control?


Does anyone know if you can use the red filter on the SM's red test screen to test delay settings somewhat?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
regarding my DVE impressions:


I think it explains more than AVIA overall. Then it touches on things I need to know without really explaing them - so that I know to investigate them further. Good at least that it alerts me to them.


I think the disk could be improved if it let you get right to test material from a menu instead of having to use the DVD search feature or skip to it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
regarding gamma 0 or gamma 4.


wanted to add: Gamma 0 provides better black level, there is no question. i stepped through the gamma settings while on the brightnes test where there is a black background with black bars at 2% and 4%. (The sub black bar is invisible.) Gammo 0 definately provides deeper black so that at this point I confidently set gamma to 0. but when I got to the contrast still shot described in the first post i was struck by how little of the bottom half of the picture I could make out.


So I stepped through gamma again and found Gamma 4 provides the mot detail. I think you have to make a choice between black depth and picture detail.


The result of the change to gamma 4 is that while watching ATOC the night before at GAMMA 0 my girlfriend noted, correclty I might add, that the faces were too dark during the chace scene. For instance the shot of the changling looking back at anakin while he's hanging on her ship and her face changes. At gamma 0 this was so suttle it was barely noticable. at gaama 4 it was much more apparent, the area of the face changed was larger. still subtle as intended, but also I think more of what we were meant to see. Overall the chase seen was more visible so that I wasn't thinking to myself that the sacrifice I made with this TV was not being able to see dark scenes very well.

jb
 

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jb33,


What about the details on Palpatine's cummerbund in Chapter 4? Also the details in the black outfits on the Jedi in the room with him. For instance, on my Sony CRT I can really make out lots of details in his gold cummerbund and such, also I can tell that the one Jedi in black is a WOMAN, not a man. "huh huh huh huh... she's got bumps" :)


On my DLP, I couldn't tell diddly. Also, I thought Palpy had on a black shirt.. no clue it was gold as well until hooking up the same DVD player to the new Sony.


Thoughts?


Thanks... can't wait to get a chance to play with the DLP again. MUST FINISH ONE TV CALIBRATION AT A TIME!!!! :)


Later,

Jeff

Quote:
Originally posted by jb33
regarding gamma 0 or gamma 4.


wanted to add: Gamma 0 provides better black level, there is no question. i stepped through the gamma settings while on the brightnes test where there is a black background with black bars at 2% and 4%. (The sub black bar is invisible.) Gammo 0 definately provides deeper black so that at this point I confidently set gamma to 0. but when I got to the contrast still shot described in the first post i was struck by how little of the bottom half of the picture I could make out.


So I stepped through gamma again and found Gamma 4 provides the mot detail. I think you have to make a choice between black depth and picture detail.


The result of the change to gamma 4 is that while watching ATOC the night before at GAMMA 0 my girlfriend noted, correclty I might add, that the faces were too dark during the chace scene. For instance the shot of the changling looking back at anakin while he's hanging on her ship and her face changes. At gamma 0 this was so suttle it was barely noticable. at gaama 4 it was much more apparent, the area of the face changed was larger. still subtle as intended, but also I think more of what we were meant to see. Overall the chase seen was more visible so that I wasn't thinking to myself that the sacrifice I made with this TV was not being able to see dark scenes very well.

jb
 

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Is anybody else having a problem using DVE with the Samsung 931 DVD player in that it shuts off if it is in pause for too long? This is a real pain, and I can't find any way to defeat it. I would like to just leave it on pause with a test pattern for as long as I want to get my settings correct.


Also, regarding Gamma: I found that if I don't have Gamma set to 0 I have really bad clay faces (banding) in just about everything. So any gain in detail with the higher Gamma values is greatly offset by the fact that Gumby is the star of every show! Anybody else have this problem?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by bimmerbe
Is anybody else having a problem using DVE with the Samsung 931 DVD player in that it shuts off if it is in pause for too long? This is a real pain, and I can't find any way to defeat it. I would like to just leave it on pause with a test pattern for as long as I want to get my settings correct.


Also, regarding Gamma: I found that if I don't have Gamma set to 0 I have really bad clay faces (banding) in just about everything. So any gain in detail with the higher Gamma values is greatly offset by the fact that Gumby is the star of every show! Anybody else have this problem?
OK. I'll bite. Will someone please explain what is meant by "clay face"?
 

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My DVE is on the way, so I will post updates when it arrives.


In the meantime, re: black levels and detail, I have old VE and there is a test pattern in chapter 16 that has two small (why are they so darn small?) rectangles in the middle of the screen, each divided in three squares, each square different shade. Top rectangle has black and dark grays (pure black, very dark gray, dark gray) and bottom rectangle has white and light gray (pure white, very light gray, light gray). The goal is to have all of them clearly visible and matching in gradation (i.e. shade changes in equal steps - I believe it is 10%).


When I set up my HLN617W (firmware 209, tweaked per 214 firmware posted by Mike_Pro, a bit reduced gain on R, all via DVI from my HTPC with ATI 9800 Pro) to properly display the pattern (requires both brightness and contrast adjustments, then you check for sub-black test pattern to make sure it is not shown), the picture looks all washed out with significant noise present. Yes, all the detail in dark areas is there and then some, but black is nowere to be found on the screen. Then as you go down with the brightness, black starts becomming black again, but detail is gradually lost. It looks like the the ultimate brightness setting depends on personal preferrence - some folks will like detail and some like rock solid blacks. I personaly like "solid" black with modest -to-good dark detail. To bad we can't have the cake and eat it as well.
 

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It's a term we all use around here to signify what alot of others call "color banding". It is most noticeable on faces. Basically, the DLP doesn't resolve the subtle color differences between a bunch of adjacent pixels and just shades them all the same color... usually a peachy or whitish look (assuming Caucasian flesh tone). It makes the people look like their faces have been molded from clay. Do a search for clay faces... you'll find THOUSANDS of hits.


Later,

Jeff


Quote:
Originally posted by ctyankee4847
OK. I'll bite. Will someone please explain what is meant by "clay face"?
 

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Most calibrators I have spoken with also agree on Gamma 0. I have had no problems with low light detail, as I properly set everything else, including grayscale. This usually yields me a gamma of about 2.5, which is great for a DLP.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The good news is I can see details like the color variations and the texture of his shirt. I can see the clearly defined ridges in his gold cumberbund. And I do see bumps. I repeat, we've got bumps.


But Gamma 0 or 4 makes no difference. The detail is there with no discernable difference to those items I'm scrutinizing as I step through gamma. The only difference overall is a slightly better quality to the sky behind palpatine when he's telling senator amadala to shack up with anakin.


when my DVD player is paused long enough it dims the picture. Then I can't make out any detail on the shirt, loose most of the cumberbund to shadow.


Of course I can't say what percentage of detail I may be missing. will try and hook up the old tube soon to do a comparison unless you happen to have a digital camera and can take a picture of your sony.


take care,

jb


Quote:
Originally posted by Iceblade
jb33,


What about the details on Palpatine's cummerbund in Chapter 4? Also the details in the black outfits on the Jedi in the room with him. For instance, on my Sony CRT I can really make out lots of details in his gold cummerbund and such, also I can tell that the one Jedi in black is a WOMAN, not a man. "huh huh huh huh... she's got bumps" :)


On my DLP, I couldn't tell diddly. Also, I thought Palpy had on a black shirt.. no clue it was gold as well until hooking up the same DVD player to the new Sony.


Thoughts?


Thanks... can't wait to get a chance to play with the DLP again. MUST FINISH ONE TV CALIBRATION AT A TIME!!!! :)


Later,

Jeff
 

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It will also make a difference if you have your set properly calibrated. If your grayscale is not tracking D6500, then it's tough to gauge anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
hmmm, interesting point to consider seth. but, dont you think the effects of changing gamma are more pronounced given darker content and that maybe the differences in detail between my set and iceblades could likely be explained by firmware differences or some other variable.


if you wouldn't mind giving a tutorial, what is gamma? what am I changing when I change its value?


and what setting or combo of settings most directly effect gray temp. brightness/contrast?


by the way, I'm seriously considering catching you on one of your monday tours to the bay area sometime after christmas.


jb
 
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