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What effect does this have on buying a HDTV "ready" set right now? Will I have to wait? Where do I find information on DVI? Thanks I'm worried about being out dated before I even buy the set!!


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FLABOY
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The issue is too complex to be explained in a few sentences or even a few paragraphs, but if you do a search for the terms DVI, HDCP, 5C, HDCP, and Firewire, you will find at least twenty threads that will give you all the answers you need.


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Vic Ruiz
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Quote:
Originally posted by FLABOY:
What effect does this have on buying a HDTV "ready" set right now? Will I have to wait? Where do I find information on DVI? Thanks I'm worried about being out dated before I even buy the set!!

You might want to start with this recent thread--there I break down my current understanding of the copy-protection standards and what they mean. The short answer is, if you don't care about watching subscription movie channels, pay-per-view and prerecorded movies on tape or disc, copy-protection will probably never effect you, and you can buy any HD monitor that interests you. Otherwise, you might want to give the new Firewire/DTCP compliant sets from Sony (now) and Mitsubishi (very soon) a long hard look.


-- Mike Scott

 

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There is also a decent probability that certain subscription channels will for compatibility broadcast a down-rezzed non copy protected version that has less than 520,000 pixels / frame and would not need the new boxes to view.


Just speculating, but these would make sense for the many years when most of us will not have the capability to view protected material. The signals could look like 1080i or 720p to your TV but they would be heavily filtered so they would not quite look like that to your eye.


Because OTA broadcasters will not be protecting their signals they may find that certain premium content is available to them only in this form.


- Tom


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Quote:
Originally posted by trbarry:
There is also a decent probability that certain subscription channels will for compatibility broadcast a down-rezzed non copy protected version that has less than 520,000 pixels / frame and would not need the new boxes to view.
All the current DBS STBs that only have analog HD outputs are supposed to be able to do that, when copy-protection is applied to the content. The MPEG-2 format contains a field called "Copy Control Information" that is analogous to the Encryption Mode Indicator that's part of DTCP--it has the same four states, "Copy Never", "No More Copies", "Copy One Generation" and "Copy Freely". When decoding the MPEG-2 for conversion to analog, the STBs can look at these embedded flags and perform image constraint for everything except "Copy Freely". There therefore doesn't have to be any special signal sent.


In addition, for convenience sake, MPEG-2 TS has a defined packet for support of DTCP which defines the individual protection modes of all the programs contained in the stream. This can be examined and used without decoding the elementary MPEG-2 stream for any single program to find its embedded flags.


-- Mike Scott
 

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So what happens to the million of so of us who have HDTVs without a digital output? Suppose HBO, Showtime, and everyone else starts degrading our signal (when?). Are we grandfathered? If not, then do we have any legal rights?


How many (%) of the new HDTVs coming out in the next couple of months will have these digital outputs?


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Quote:
Originally posted by SmokeBringer:
So what happens to the million of so of us who have HDTVs without a digital output? Suppose HBO, Showtime, and everyone else starts degrading our signal (when?). Are we grandfathered? If not, then do we have any legal rights?


How many (%) of the new HDTVs coming out in the next couple of months will have these digital outputs?
It may be nearly 1.5 million people by now, though some of those have bought the 1394/DTCP enabled Sony direct-view that's been on sale for the past couple of months. This issue has been hashed over in these forums endlessly in the past few months--do a search for the terms DFAST, DTLA, DTCP and HDCP to find the threads that discuss it.


I don't know about percentages--Sony's introducing 3 new sets this Fall, two of which are shipping already: the KD-34XBR2 "34 direct-view, and KDP-57XBR2 and KDP-65XBR2 57" and 65" 7"-CRT-based RPTVs. Mitsubishi is shipping 3 or four models spread out through the Fall and Winter months, starting with the WT-55859, due out by the end of this month. All of the aforementioned have a pair of 1394/DTCP copy-protected connection (you daisy-chain all such devices in your network together) and an integrated ATSC tuner. They also all implement some level of device control through those connection, up through a full HAVi implementation by the Mitsubishi's. They all implement more basic protocols that allow for such things as a VCR using the TV's ATSC tuner, and any device putting up basic On Screen Display overlays through the Firewire.


Note that Sony is also introducing four or five other new HD sets this Fall and Winter without copy-protected connections--go figure.


JVC's D'Ahlia RPTV, based on their LCOS-related D-ILA digital reflective technology, and a handful of expensive DLP front projectors have DVI/HDCP copy-protected inputs. Echostar is planning to put DVI/HDCP outputs on future STBs (as well as 1394/DTCP), but so far the only HD D-VHS VCRs to be announced have only 1394/DTCP connections, including JVC's (well JVC's also has analog HD component video connections through which it can display non-copy-protected video at full HD resolution and copy-protected stuff with image constraints--resolution reduced to no higher than 1/4 1920x1080)--so far, people with DVI/HDCP monitors would be out of luck for using HD VCRs.


Mitsubishi owns a hefty chunk of the HDTV market, and virtually all of the sets that they've sold are upgradeable to have tuners. They are promising to introduce a service-center installable tuner module by the end of next year to add all the features of their new integrated sets to any of those upgradeable models for a price expected to be "under $1000".


The DTCP Adopters Agreement only allows copy-protections to be applied to subscription television, pay-per-view and prerecorded media. "Copy Never" may only be applied to pay-per-view and prerecorded stuff. HD basic and extended basic cable channels could have "Copy One Generation" protection applied, but if the program is aired with commercial interruptions, Image Constraint Tokens must also be applied to prevent image constraint of HD analog outputs. OTA stuff rebroadcast over cable or DBS can't be copy-protected at all. So the only stuff that can be image constrained are the movie channels (HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, TMC, Starz and possibly Encore), pay-per-view and prerecorded media.


Personally, I think that the earliest HD adopters were victims of a scam. The equipment manufacturers knew that copy-protection was coming--they built the image constraint function into the DBS STBs--and they sold non-copy-protected equipment to the earliest adopters without informing them (I consider even people buying today, when there's barely 1% market penetration of HD equipment, to still be very much early adopters).


You're not "grandfathered". The whole point is to stop people from making unprotected copies from the HD analog outputs--of the recent, high-value stuff that they care about--using one of JVC's WVHS decks or something better. Having some hundreds of thousands of STBs in the field with the copy-protected stuff coming out of the analog component video outputs in full HD resolution after copy-protection is deployed won't do. At least one of the STBs mentioned the image constraint in its documentation (the owner's manual of RCA's DTC100 has an inset statement on page 16 of the PDF that reads "Due to copyright restrictions, you may not be able to view some high definition programs in high definition format using this product." But who thoroughly reads the owner's manual before buying something?


-- Mike Scott


[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 10-03-2001).]
 

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Michael,


I understand that JVC has a D-VHS coming within the next month or two with the DVI output, meant to be a companion to the D'Ahlia.


BTW, I finally saw the D'Ahlia . Ouch.


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by JustMike:
Michael,


I understand that JVC has a D-VHS coming within the next month or two with the DVI output, meant to be a companion to the D'Ahlia.
Yeah, I thought that, too, until someone here pointed out that JVC seemed to have abandoned DVI with their new HM-DH30000U HD D-VHS VCR. So I went back and re-read their press-release on the product (which includes quite a lot of specification detail) and lo, he was right. No DVI. The press-release quotes an Echostar marketeer talking about how their future STB will have 1394/DTCP and DVI/HDCP connections, but that's the only mention of DVI in the entire article.


Not even the new HM-DH35000 , about to be introduced in Japan, has a DVI output.
Quote:
BTW, I finally saw the D'Ahlia . Ouch.
Yeah, I read your review. I bought a JVC receiver at an online discount (the computer Dolby Digital amplifier/speaker system that I had been using in my living room gave up the ghost and I wasn't ready to drop the money that I eventually intend to spend on an audiophile quality system)--the 8010VBK. I bought it because it had a great list of features, particularly for the price, but I am sorely unimpressed with it. There is no analog line-level output through which you can monitor a digital signal--I can understand that it doesn't convert analog signal into digital, but it has to do the other thing to produce the analog amplification for the speakers and headphone jacks. I have a pair of top-of-the-line Sennheiser wireless headphones that work best from a line-level source so this was sort of disappointing. I ended up connecting the analog RCA jacks as well as the digital outputs of all the things that had such and switch to the analog source when I want to list through the headphones. Seems a strange deficiency from a receiver that implements a USB audio input.


It was the first JVC thing I ever bought and it may well be the last.


-- Mike Scott

 

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Mike: Other than the analog line-level output issue, was there anything else you did not like about it? Or could you list some pro's as well? I'm seriously considering this receiver (it does have a LOT of nice features) but am concerned about sound quality, power, etc. as well.



Thanks!


-Tim
 
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