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There is an important issue with DVI that pertains to this forum. DVI has a limited distance, 5 meters. How will FPTV work with that? At least 5C over 1394 can go much longer distances.


Even RPTV could be an issue. This is the same problem with USB. They devise these new interfaces and don't take into account not everybody piles equipment on top of their TV!


OK so you want to have a secure digital link. At least make one we can use.
 

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The audio discusses DVI/HDCP at 45:18- 47:28, 49:50 - 52:30, 1:07:00-1:07:32, and 1:09:39- 1:09:59.


A new standard is to be announced before the end of the year covering the three objections of the CE industry. 1. audio 2. Colorspace conversion 3. Better connector.


Since they say they have been working with half the industry on the new standard, it implies that part of the industry is still opposed.


At 49:50 they indicated they have public endorsements from Warner, Disney, Fox, Universal and Sony. Nothing new. Of the top 8 this still leaves Paramount, MGM-UA, and DreamWorks.


1:07:00 Discusses interest of CE starting with high end and then moving into mass market as STBs start to move.


1:09:32 With new standard expect shipments in mid to late 2002
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Paradigm shift. With DVI/HDCP, the broadcasters, DBS, the cable systems and Hollywood will have a real incentive to quickly move HDTV to all US (and worldwide) consumers. Also, this will dramatically change the Hollywood business model where smaller studios can reach a worldwide audience free from theater restrictions. Never been as excited about the future of HDTV as now.
 

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What worries me is that this may be an abortive attempt. As I've said many times before, DVI/HDCP is all well and good and has many advantages, but nobody speaks about the necessity of allowing recording of broadcast HDTV when they talk about it--if manufacturers come to market with cable and DBS STBs that don't allow this somehow, I see them getting smacked silly by law suits that make them turn around and add an interface to allow it. It will require the overturning of a Supreme Court decision to get around this requirement and I don't see it happening.


I notice that they list 5C and 4C (the group trying to get copy-protection incorporated into computer storage devices) as organizations who've included DVI/HDCP in their specs. The DTLA has ammended the DTCP Adopter's Agreement to allow "Decrypted DT Data" to be passed through DVI/HDCP protected interfaces. What we need is what Echostar has promised from all the STB manufacturers--STBs with both interfaces, preferably whose HD MPEG-2 decoder can be used to decode and retransmit the video from any 1394 source through its DVI/HDCP output.


-- Mike Scott
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Seems that there are a bunch of cheapskates on here who want some valuable cinema rights without paying the price. Pardon me but where in our Constitution does it say that one has the right to freely obtain the intellectual property rights of others without their prior concurrence?


All HDTV enthusiasts should celebrate the fact that now Hollywood and the rest of those holding valuable cinema and live entertainment properties have the opportunity to display (and profit from) their content to the entire world without fear of digital pirating.


If you want to obtain a copy of a new movie in HD quality, certainly, in the future, you will be able to purchase it at your local HDVD retailer.


The CEA finally has got it right. By endorsing DVi/HDCP, HDTV can be a great business model for most in the media, CE and entertainment worlds. The only real losers are Gates and Chase who want to turn your DTVs into toll machines.
 

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I don't want to make copies of prerecorded movies or pay-per-view (though I think that it'd be nice to at least be able to time-shift the premium movie-channels--without this capability, I predict that those services will lose their subscribers, almost completely--I don't care if you block me from making more than one copy, or even if my copy has a reasonable time-limit on it). I want don't even want to archive the things I do record--even when I used VCRs for timeshifting, I never owned more than three blank tapes at any time, constantly overwriting what was on them and replacing them as they wore out. I just want to time-shift OTA broadcast television at the very least, howsoever I receive it, which will probably be cable. If the only HD connection coming out of my cable box is a DVI/HDCP one, that will not be possible (at least not until affordable hacking devices for HDCP's candy-assed excuse for encryption come out in 2003 at the latest :)).


I don't care who backs DVI/HDCP, you cannot take the right to time-shift television away from the American public. They won't stand for it. So DVI/HDCP, by itself, is an insufficient solution. Hopefully someone will make this clear in the upcoming congressional hearings.


-- Mike Scott
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
"you cannot take the right to time-shift television away from the American public."


95+% of television content will be freely available to record/time shift. The other 5-% is not your property to do as you wish. Premium channels will have to make their own call. Can see a business model where HBO goes with DVI/HDCP encryption/decryption on its primary channel and leaves the others free for recording.
 

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DTViscool,


Please explain in detail how any of these schemes will stop pirated tapes and DVD's from being sold on the streets of New York, Hong Kong, etc.etc.etc. The last time I heard, most pirated stuff was crappy quality, sometimes shot by people with video cameras in theaters. Please tell me how this new system will stop these criminals from breaking the law, especially if they are not in the US.


My main concern is that all the new STB's in the future might not allow me to see HDTV using my existing TV because these new schemes require inputs that my TV does not have.


My second concern is that all these restrictions will be used to implement a pay per play shcem whereby we will pay 50 cents or a dollar or 5 dollars every time we want to watch something a la Divx.


I am definitely not in favor of piracy but I also against some industry groups swooping in after the HDTV standard was done and reducing the value of my equipment by changing the rules of the game.


Also, does the fact that the CEA has officially endorsed these schemes leave the meber companies liable for damages for TV's they sell from now n that do not meet either or both of these standards?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I can understand how purchasers of $10,000 plus plasma screens (without a DVi/HDCP input) must feel when they read that they will not be able to display HD PPV and, possibly, some premium programming within a few years.


The fact is that there never was an ATSC anti-piracy standard and purchasers were buying at their own risk of future obsolescence (when a standard had been agreed upon by the major parties involved).


Some of you may even be so upset that you will attempt to hold this up in the courts and thus drag out the transition to HDTV for another five years or more. Grow up please and take your licking. We finally have a solution agreed upon by the suppliers of content, delivery and hardware that should make HDTV a workable business model for all and greatly accelerate its implementation, worldwide.
 

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Words of wisdom to ponder...


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Seems that there are a bunch of cheapskates on here who want some valuable cinema rights without paying the price.

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Um, Mr. DTVisCool, can you point me to a display device that is capable of handling not just DVI (of which there are precious few), but HDCP-encoded DVI? Your beloved RCA LCOS CAN'T....but you love it so much, you buy it. So you've got $5-6K invested in a display device that is suddenly rendered useless for likely the very thing you bought it for--to watch movies. So unless you march right out and buy a new DVI/HDCP-capable set, that would make you a cheapskate, right?


Lots of people on this forum have invested big $$$ in their HT setups--I seriously doubt you'd call any of them cheapskates. I think what we're (save for the enlightened you) all worried about is the very possible scenario that our existing HDTV equipment purchases--and more importantly, our existing display device purchases--could be rendered impotent. I, for one, am pretty sure that my intent for buying a G90 was not to watch crappy down-rez'd HDTV. The HDTV STB is something that I assumed would have a short lifespan: 2-3 years tops. That's fine. The G90's tubes can last 10-15 years with normal viewing...it can handle 1080p signals, the tip-top of the HDTV scan rate pyramid...so it was purchased with a long lifecycle in mind. I'm betting that just about anyone who has invested in a display device in the past 3-4 years has assumed that it would last longer than 5 years.


So you're logic goes like this: the push for DVI/HDCP will help push HDTV to the masses, thus making all of our lives better? Let's see--Joe Average just plunked down $2000 on a 36" WEGA. But wait! HDTV movies and the ethereal HD-DVD would require him to cough up more $$$ to watch--he needs a new DVI/HDCP-capable display to get all the HDTV glory. That's not going to happen--he'll just accept whatever down-rez'd crap that spews out from his STB/HD-DVD player into his WEGA. So the average man isn't really going to be seeing any cool HDTV movies, because they require a major new purchase in the form of a new display device, the cornerstone (and typically most expensive) piece of the HT pie. Sure, he could get OTA HDTV at full rez, but he doesn't care about seeing the nightly news in HDTV...he watches the news (and his 1-2 programs he regularly sees) on a 19" TV in the kitchen. I think the average American buys a new TV every 11 years or something--so maybe the ones who last bought in 1990 will be ripe for the new DVI/HDCP-capable devices.


So, we have a mass supplier that has cut its nose off to spite itself--the very people most likely to plunk down the big $$$ to pay for the equipment to watch new/cool HDTV movies that require the new equipment are the ones who have already plunked down big $$$ to buy the HDTV-ready sets out there. Fool me once, shame on me...fool me twice, shame on you.


The CD was successful because it didn't force you to do anything other than buy a CD player--you didn't HAVE to buy a new receiver, a new amp or new speakers for the CD to do what it was designed to do. Some did buy new downstream equipment to enhance the CD listening experience (e.g., better amp, better speakers). And audio equipment manufacturers (and studios, despite their initial protestations) found their salvation.


The DVD was successful because it didn't force you to do anything other than buy a new DVD player--you didn't HAVE to buy a new TV for it to do what it was designed to do. Some did buy a new TV/display device to enahnce the DVD viewing experience (e.g., 16:9 HDTV-ready sets). And HT equipment manufacturers (and studios, despite their initial protestations) found their salvation.


DVI/HDCP requires you to make a major new purchase in the form of a new TV/display device for the STB to do what it was designed to do. For that reason alone, it is doomed, despite the efforts of the fools pushing it. Would CD have caught on if it had required you to throw away your existing speakers and buy special CD-enabled speakers? Would DVD have caught on if it had required you to throw away your TV and buy a special DVD-enabled TV? I think not. The problem is that the studios don't think...period.
 

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Very well put Alex.


I wish we could collect enough money to put this article in a one page add on the USA Today.


And worn not just the public but the showroom stores about what's to come and see how sales effects this news.

HDTV reminds me of who came first the chicken or the egg.

or

Broadcast or manufacturers.


Looks like its going to be Divix reborn.


Hugo
 

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Quote:
Some of you may even be so upset that you will attempt to hold this up in the courts and thus drag out the transition to HDTV for another five years or more. Grow up please and take your licking.
Yes, that may happen, especially if they attempt to hinder things consumers are accustomed to doing already.


It is also almost certain to be held up by non market acceptance if it doesn't offer decent resolution pictures through existing connections somehow.


And it's possible that this may be held up while the ATSC transition continues slowly in other directions.


The CEA edorses a lot of things and floats a lot of trial balloons but that doesn't mean all of them come about. But each new press release presents things with an air of inevitability.


- Tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
"can you point me to a display device that is capable of handling not just DVI (of which there are precious few), but HDCP-encoded DVI? Your beloved RCA LCOS CAN'T....but you love it so much, you buy it. "


That is apparently why Thomson/RCA has held up the release of its new plasma and LCOS models. They should be DVI/HDCP equipped by Fall 2002.


Anti-piracy measures in this new digital age cut across all areas of data distribution including PC software, music and film. Days are gone when you could slip a Windows OS upgrade in any PC and have it work. Same will happen to valuable cinema content. Owners of the content will be protected from mass piracy thus giving them more incentive to deliver the full spectrum of their cinema libraries and newest releases to as widest audience as possible, worldwide. Instead of about eight major studios controlling cinema production and distribution there could be thousands of independents competing on a more equal level propelling the entertainment world into a new era of creation, diversity and quality.


This is a paradigm shift. Change is hard to accept for most but change will come.
 

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Help me here...


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That is apparently why Thomson/RCA has held up the release of its new plasma and LCOS models. They should be DVI/HDCP equipped by Fall 2002.

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Um, this is the same RCA/Thompson that was 12+ months late with their eagerly anticipated DTC-100 (I'm glad it finally did ship, though)? I'm sure they'll work double time to include an input connection that no STB currently has--or likely will have for the near future. That's business genius!


As for the rest of your paradigm shift, it's bunk. Sure, companies can come out with whatever DRM schemes/technologies they want (and whatever new gee whiz stuff)...if the public doesn't buy it, it disappears. Just because MS released XP, did you buy a copy? Well, neither did anyone else...sales have been grossly underwhelming. I don't know if you've noticed, but the real shift is that people are holding onto things longer before replacing them--houses, cars, PCs, operating systems, stereos, TVs, etc. If people refuse to shell out new $$$ to purchase new DVI/HDCP-enabled TVs, DVI/HDCP will die on the vine. I'm betting Joe Average isn't too kean on the thought of spending $3-5K for a new set to replace his 2 year old $3K set. It's about as close to a self-fulfilling prophecy as you're going to see.


I'm all for the proper deployment of DRM--but the necessity of an encrypted link from STB to display will be HDCP's undoing.
 

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DTVisCool,


You did not answer my questions before but have reiterated a key tenet that I believe is wrong. You stated that the owners of cinema rights should be protected from mass duplication of their work. Please explain how these systems will stop someone who intends to make a living at criminal enterprise from doing just that. I do not believe that any of these systems will remain unbroken for more than a few weeks after they are released. From acedemic papers on the subject it already appears that they can theoretically be broken as soon as the devices are released.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by DTVisCool
"can you point me to a display device that is capable of handling not just DVI (of which there are precious few), but HDCP-encoded DVI? Your beloved RCA LCOS CAN'T....but you love it so much, you buy it. "


That is apparently why Thomson/RCA has held up the release of its new plasma and LCOS models. They should be DVI/HDCP equipped by Fall 2002.
"Apparently"? What proof whatsoever do you have of this? I haven't seen Thomson come out as a supporter of DVI anywhere. It's much more likely that they haven't been able to amass enough LCOS chips to ship a reasonable number of these things and replacement parts.


As for the issue of electronic anti-piracy measures, you're preaching to the choir to me. I'm one of the largest proponents of the IP holder's rights to attempt to prevent the theft of their digital property currently posting in these forums. (Though I like to think I have a milder tact in presenting my case for it). I think that these efforts will probably eventually fail, but I think that they have every right to try. In the case of HDTV, they asked for and were promised copy-protection long before it went on the air or any equipment was sold. The CE OEMs knew this and went ahead and sold a bunch of equipment that they knew would not be able to display premium programming in HD resolution to the only people willing to pay the very high initial prices, most of whom--certainly all of the tuner buyers--were primarily interested in viewing that premium programming. I think that those manufacturers are the villains in this scenario, with the FCC taking a secondary role, since they knew the score too and pushed things along.


However, earlier you said, "95+% of television content will be freely available to record/time shift". Uh, how? If I tune television with a cable box, and I watch it through a DVI connector, and the only digital video output of that box is a DVI connector, how will I timeshift any television? Remember, all television will be DTV, eventually.


I doubt that your guess that most or all HDTVs at CES this January will have DVI/HDCP connectors will come true. I don't think that your interpretation of this information (some sort of presentation to some financial group by Silicon Graphics, makers of the sole DVI/HDCP chipset) is accurate. I think that SI is grasping at straws, trying to make the future outlook of that product line look as rosy as possible to the financial community. The fact is that they have two, count 'em, two current buyers for their DVI/HDCP chips, JVC and Echostar. Echostar has stated that they will use both DVI/HDCP and 1394/DTCP connections on their upcoming products. JVC, though it has placed these inputs on their televisions, has declined to put an output on their HD D-VHS VCR. The fact that the CEA has tossed a spec on how those who choose to use DVI/HDCP in their products shall go about it onto their large pile of specs, is not the CEA saying "we think that all HDTVs from here on out should include DVI/HDCP connectors". After all, just a few days prior, on the 4th, the CEA made this release to the press about establishing labelling for televisions incorporating 1394/DTCP connections. From the TVinsite article:
Quote:
The baseline "DTVLink" label will apply to a product capable of interfacing with other products with the following minimum attributes: a 1394 serial connection; conformity with the applicable EIA/CEA technology and standards profiles based on EIA-849, and use of the Digital Transmission Content Protection (DTCP or 5C) system.
I know that change will come, but the form of that change is far from clear. Of course, don't let me stop you from getting yourself all in a tizzy.


-- Mike Scott
 

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To fight piracy, all they need to do is to offer contents in away the average guy can buy. DVI is a way only to control prices not contents.
 
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