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After getting a HDTV[40H80 16X9] and reading the paranoid posts in here about the "POTENTIAL" incorporation of the DVI/HDCP technology into existing and future HDTV sets, I had to post my comments in here.


As of today, DVI/HDCP technology is not incorporated into any broadcasters or HDTV manufacturers! The only sets that have been a force or implement DVI/HDCP/Firewire into their sets are Mitsibushi and Sony. This technology is for copy-right protection of Digital-format content and its standard hasn't even been finalized yet nor has it totally been agreed upon by contennt providers and set manufacturers!!!!


There has been much discussion about people scared to buy a HDTV set in this forum and others, due to the fear that this technology will render their new set incompatible....we'll have no fear people cause it isn't gonna leave you with a useless set! Here are the reasons why!


1. HD and its standard formats and outlines were guidelined by the FCC, content and set manufacturers. These plans were developed years ago and now are beginning to become in place. It has taken years to get this far and more years to come to totally transform all analog broadcasting to digital. To incorporate DVI/HDCP during the growth[kid-teen stage]and rendering current-early HDTV sets useless would be like putting a loaded gun to the head of HDTV content providers and especially to the manufactures. Current HDTV users are the building blocks of the future to these companies, which help spread the growth of HDTV. To screw them would kill any first hand promotion and customers loyalty, thus kill the market.


2. The implementation of DVI/HDCP into future content has not been fully agreed upon nor have all manufactures agreed to implement it. I heard from a source that DVI has its bugs[audio]and hasn't been fully workable. My source told me that if it is incorporated, it won't be for at least 5 years probibly. So existing HDTV buyers have no worry. After I heard this, I felt that if us HDTV consumers really were against DVI/HDCP, it would be best if the majority of HDTV owners would get their sets now, thus enabling us to protest. Potential content providers that use DVI/HDTV would have a powerful and numerous group of persons against them! We all know that would change things!


3. The DVI/HDCP saga could in fact lead to a class-action lawsuit if consumers were to be hurt by leaving their sets useless! The need for DVI/HDCP is not on the consumers side, nor is it on the set manufacturers' side. The force behind it comes from certain set manufacturer that is also a movie content provider. If the technology renders current digital[industry stand and agreed upon] deliverance of content useless, then consumer groups could sue for remedies.[false advertising,anti-trust etc]


These are my comments and I feel that current buyers shouldn't be afraid of the "potential" DVI/HDCP technology.

If you want HDTV get it now, waiting for DVI/HDCP to be incorporated only means that you want it!


p.s. what do you think????
 

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It is very important to understand that everyone has the ability to choose whatever HD set they want. Hell...it's their money and they should spend it as they see fit!


If the members of this forum think that they can organize a forum wide boycott on anything...dream on. It ain't gonna happen.


Each scenerio has it plus's and minus's. Take the JVC D'aila for instance. It has DVI/HDCP. But it doesn't have 1394/5c. The reverse is true for the Mits sets that are coming out this year.


There is not one set comming that will have both 1394/5C AND DVI/HDCP. You can analyze this to the cows come home and what you are really doing is making a guesstimate as to which copy protection scheme will be the most prevelant.


According to everything that I have read 1394/5C will be the copy protection scheme for the recording HDTV while DVI/HDCP is the copy protection scheme for viewing HDTV.


But as has been mentioned before, nothing is cast in concrete...yet.


The concern many have is that their very expensive equipment, which was purchased with the main intent of watching HDTV will be rendered useless to do just that...watch HDTV.


Many of us understand that what is considered "the best" today will not be in the next 2 or 3 years. But we still felt that our existing equipment would tide us over until such time that we wanted to upgrade to the next level of "best."


Television is not like the PC. The very first Color TV sold in 1953 will show a color picture in 2001 (if it is still working). It will not display HDTV because HDTV is a whole new television system. Just like a B&W TV will not show Color.


What has taken all of us by suprise is that purchasing a brand new HDTV set in 2000 will not guarantee that you will be able to see HDTV in 2003. Mind you that the purchase in 2000 is only 2 years after the inttroduction of HDTV.


Also i understand that to fortell the future you have to look back to the past.


I can't tell you how many pieces of equipment i have owned that have some additional port on them for some future upgrade that just never happened. Eveyone remember the wide band port on the back of all the RCA DirecTV receivers sold in the first 3 or 4 years of DTV going online? This was supposed to be for the introduction of HDTV. But it was abandoned for a whole new receiver.


We may actually get equipment with DVI/HDCP on it and it will never be used. Only time will tell.


At this date in time, there are about 1.2 million HDTV sets in the marketplace both in consumer hands and in stores. There are also a little over 150,000 HDTV STB's which again includes consumers, retail stores and warehouses. Remember this is since 1998 and does not include PC's.


By the end of 2001 there should be close to 1.5 million HD sets. That is a big number and 99.99% of them have no DVI/HDCP. Also keep in mind that the Mits promise module is only for 1394/5C and they (Mits) have publically stated that they will have nothing to do with DVI/HDCP.


I have seen the JVC D'alia set and it is very nice. But it is also 2X or 3X the cost of other HD sets and believe me, the image is not 2 or 3 times better than a Toshiba or a Panasonic.


FACT: In the last 25 years...only one consumer item has dropped in price EVERY SINGLE YEAR. That item is the Color TV.


People who buy TV's do not go out with the intention of purchasing the most expensive set made. On the contrary, they usually go out and buy the LEAST expensive set they can buy in the size that they want.


We here at the AVS are a "drop of water" in the "ocean of TV set owners." We are 25,000 people in a nation of 130,000,000 TV set owners.


Everybaody is full of themselves because "we stopped DIVX" DVD. That campaign was taken up by at least a dozen DVD websites along with manufacturers, retail stores and studios.


Who else do you know that is discussing DVI/HDCP besides AVS Forum...and is there a campaign to stop it?


Everything I have stated is food for thought.


Lee
 

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Great post Lee. I love it and respect it and totally agree with it...


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Geof
 

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Ranold - Just a thought, it's not necessary to add an exclamation mark after every sentence...


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ABC = Another Boring Channel. Watch CBS on Monday Nights!
 

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I do not think we are all as helpless as some may believe.


Way back in college I had a course on "Diffusion of Innovation". It discussed how new ideas and technology are adopted.


To oversimplify, stuff gets first tried and used by early adopter pioneers then (if good) picked up by opinion leaders and finally copied the public at large.


I think that, as far as HDTV goes, this forum represents many folks from the first two groups. If we universally scorn some some HD technology it certainly will not help its adoption.


- Tom


------------------
Getting started with HTPC:
HTPC FAQ , DScaler , Xcel's Links , and
The Anti-DMCA Website .
s>
And Free Dmitri Sklyarovs>
 

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Tom,


Take at look at the 300+ posts on this "boycott JVC/DVI" issue. There is no agreement amoung the members to do just that...boycott JVC.


People are going to do what they want and let me tell you a little secret...


JVC may be trying to capatialize on the "DVI Scare" (which in essence, they created in the first place) by trying to sell a HDTV that is "futureproof" (which it isn't)


The one good thing that I see is that this is a $13,500 HDTV set in a world of $2000 to $4000 HDTV sets. The price of this thing should keep many from buying it.


I would love to see this whole DVI/1394 issue just go away and start releasing the equipment as it should be released...with Component/VGA/RGB outputs. We should already have a HD DVHS VCR and a HD PVR should have already been announced but because of the issues,,,we don't. That is not to say he won't but until the issues are resolved, the state of HDTV is in a bit of a flux.


Here is one of the problems. People have been living with the ability to timeshift via a VCR for over 25 years. They expect this to happen with HDTV just like it did with NTSC...and it will but under what guise?


It may take another Betamax case to break the stranglehold the MPAA seems to have at this time.


At the same time in 60 days people are going to be given the ability to do exactly what they want to do...to record HDTV without "fixes, dodads, gizmos, PC 'c, etc."


For about $6000 to $7,000 you will be able to buy a Mits 55" HDTV and Mits HD DVHS VCR and not only watch OTA HDTV but have the ability to record and archive it...if you choose.


Anyone who buys this combo is supporting 1394/5C which is the scheme that Mits has choosen to go with. And believe me that a lot of people on this Forum are going to do just that...buy them. Because they want to be able to record HDTV as well as view it...at their leisure. For the first time that I can remember, a manufacturer os going to offer a common product (a VCR) that will only work with his equipment. There are rumors that the VCR will also work with the new Sony HD RPTV's but it is not going to work with any other equipment. Not one of the existing 1.2 million HD TV's be they RPTV, FPTV, Plasma, DirecT View.


You really can't say NO to DVI/HDCP and YES to 1394/5C. It almost has to be an all or nothing scenerio.


Lee
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeAntin:
There is not one set comming that will have both 1394/5C AND DVI/HDCP. You can analyze this to the cows come home and what you are really doing is making a guesstimate as to which copy protection scheme will be the most prevelant.
They are not intended by their designers to be mutually exclusive. Intel was a principal in the design of both standards. The DTLA extended the Adopter's Agreement to allow the output of decrypted DTCP content over DVI/HDCP, an endorsement of DVI/HDCP from the creators of 1394/DTCP. So far as I've heard, all of the studios who have endorsed one have also endorsed the other--Sony and Warner have endorsed both in separate press releases.


As for the top level poster's claim that 5C is not a completed standard, it has been done and in the box for over two years. All that's been happening since then is arguing between the CE OEMs (who developed it) and the cable and DBS providers (who abhor any equipment standardization) over whether they were going to use it or not. As I've pointed out in a separate post, Sony's KD-34XBR2 34" direct-view w/integrated ATSC tuner and DTCP compliant ports is in stores now--I've seen it at The Good Guys in UTC Village Shopping Ctr in La Jolla near USCD. Some people in this forum have purchased them and there's a discussion of the set here . Cablevision in NYC is scheduled to roll out Sony's DTCP compliant cable STB to its customer base starting this October (see the press-release here ). Of course, they were supposed to do this in the Summer of 2000 as stated in this Sony press release from 12/99 (like I said, 1394/DTCP was good to go over 2 years ago) so who knows.
Quote:
The concern many have is that their very expensive equipment, which was purchased with the main intent of watching HDTV will be rendered useless to do just that...watch HDTV.
This is not entirely true--what is being affected is your ability to watch some HDTV in full HD. According to the DTCP Adopter's Agreement, which anyone using the protocol must sign, in essence, only the premium movie channels and PPV can be Image Constrained at all using DTCP. Any program on a subscription channel can be "Copy One Generation" protected, but if it has commercial interruptions, it must be marked with flags that prevent Image Constraint when viewed through analog outputs. Only PPV or other pay-per-single-viewing business models like Video On Demand can be marked "Copy Never". So, the lion's share of your 180-channels of cable or DBS dreck is untouched by copy-protection. Of course, the parts affected are arguably some of the most desirable parts, but that's understandably what the IP owners are trying to protect.
Quote:
What has taken all of us by suprise is that purchasing a brand new HDTV set in 2000 will not guarantee that you will be able to see HDTV in 2003. Mind you that the purchase in 2000 is only 2 years after the inttroduction of HDTV.
Again, "some" HDTV. And you can see it, just not in full HD resolution. Of course, that's not much consolation. However, you were sold those sets and STBs by the CE OEMs in the full knowledge that this copy-protection stuff was coming--though I'm not a lawyer, it seems like grounds for suit to me.


-- Mike Scott


[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 08-30-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Again, "some" HDTV. And you can see it, just not in full HD resolution. Of course, that's not much consolation. However, you were sold those sets and STBs by the CE OEMs in the full knowledge that this copy-protection stuff was coming--though I'm not a lawyer, it seems like grounds for suit to me.
I would have to disagree with you about a law suit. Remember we are still promised OTA indefinately and that is the only place the gov. can step in and regulate. What happens in DBS or Cable is a different story. That is all done behind closed doors and private. I doubt the gov. would step in and try to force them to let up. What are you gonna sue the manufacturers for? If anything they will shift the blame towards the DBS and Cable companies. And of course they will shift the blame towards hollywood. But the bottom line is dbs and cable are all private industries and i doubt the gov. will tell them or any law suit will tell them how to run their business.


--MIKE
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeAntin:
You really can't say NO to DVI/HDCP and YES to 1394/5C. It almost has to be an all or nothing scenerio.
Ex-squeeze me? Would you explain this statement please?


You can in fact say NO to DVI/HDCP and YES to 1394/DVCP and get both display and recording, copy-protected, as long as you're willing to build a fair amount of intelligence into your display device. Optimally, you will say YES to both, and use DVI/HDCP for STB to display (because it's cheap and "future-proof" in that it lets you change the video compression standard in your A/V network w/o affecting your display) and 1394/DTCP for communicating encrypted data to recorders and back into your STB. The best scenario would be for your STB to be the only 1394/DTCP device in your network with video decompression capability and let the recorders be basically dumb devices that store the compressed data and send it to the STB for decompression on playback. Sony and Mitsubishi have eschewed DVI/1394 (though Sony endorses it, Mitsubishi has publically pooh-poohed it, in a PR move) and placed 1394/DTCP ports and a fair amount of intelligence in the set.


What you can't do is say NO to 1394/DTCP and YES to DVI/HDCP and get both display and recording, at least at this time. We don't have technology at a consumer price point that can capture the uncompressed digital video stream carried by DVI/HDCP and recompress it for recording in realtime and certainly not storage media with the capacity to store any meaninful amount of the uncompressed data.


-- Mike Scott



[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 08-30-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by mikexny:



Again, "some" HDTV. And you can see it, just not in full HD resolution. Of course, that's not much consolation. However, you were sold those sets and STBs by the CE OEMs in the full knowledge that this copy-protection stuff was coming--though I'm not a lawyer, it seems like grounds for suit to me.



I would have to disagree with you about a law suit. Remember we are still promised OTA indefinately and that is the only place the gov. can step in and regulate. What happens in DBS or Cable is a different story. That is all done behind closed doors and private. I doubt the gov. would step in and try to force them to let up. What are you gonna sue the manufacturers for? If anything they will shift the blame towards the DBS and Cable companies. And of course they will shift the blame towards hollywood. But the bottom line is dbs and cable are all private industries and i doubt the gov. will tell them or any law suit will tell them how to run their business.


--MIKE
70% of all people in this country view television through cable a chunk of the remainder view television through DBS. It is probable that nearly everyone who has bought an HDTV would not have bought it had they known that forced image constraints on premium subscription and PPV programming was coming for that equipment. The manufacturers knew and they knew that few consumers would buy if they knew and they didn't tell the consumers. This seems actionable--a clear confidence game.


Of course, I could be wrong. I have a friend who plans to buy an HD plasma set who, if the copy-protection issue isn't resolved by the time he's ready to buy, will buy anyway and accept the image constraints (although I don't know if he realizes that they will apply to any HD DVDs as well, since he's buying the set primarily to watch prerecorded films on). At least he's an informed consumer. It could be that many people would have bought anyway, even if they'd known. After all, many of them got to watch what HD programming was available for a couple of years while copy-protection was percolating.


-- Mike Scott
 

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Don't even start http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


We discussed this thing ad-noseum already (do a search on HDCP and you will see). This Xmas season we will see some

devices with HDCP hit the stores. It all boils down to not buying them. Unfortunately, this very forum is split on this most important question. There are people waiting to buy D'ahila (?) from JVC.


But then again, they might reconsider with NASDAQ @ 1500.


Some CEMs are involved in serious **s-kissing act (it the MPAA's behind that is the object), claiming HDCP is the next best thing that happened to the industry since transistor - since it makes it so easy to overlay custom stuff on HD video. Gimme a break - ANALOG HD is the easiest to work with, period. Anything else simply adds extra layers on top of very transparent and easy to deal with signal.

 

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Okay, some of this posting is inaccurate or misleading. As one of those folks planning to buy a D'Ahlia, I should point out that it is one display currently shipping with HDCP already. There are no set-tops currently shipping with DVI/HDCP that I'm aware of, however.


Further info on why I'm buying the D'Ahlia even with DVI/HDCP is here .


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)
 
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