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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is there such a device as a DVI to VGA converter? My HDTV doesn't have a DVI input, but I do use an Audio authority VGA to component converter inbetween my HTPC and my HDTV. With all the talk of the Bravo being almost as good (if not AS good) as an HTPC, I thought that if it was possible to convert the DVI signal to VGA, I could feed it into my Audio Authority box, and then out to my HDTV's component input. If this is possible, would the resulting image be as good as the VGA out of my HTPC? or am I just dreaming?


Marc.
 

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It is not legal to convert the HDCP protected signal to VGA. That would be a direct violation of the Digital Millinium Copyright Act (DMCA), punishable by a huge fine and jail time.


If you don't like this, you can contact your representative to ask for their support for HR 107 (the Digital Media Consumers' Rights Act of 2003 ) which will modify the DMCA to protect our fair use rights.


-phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Erik, let me know if it works. Even at $400, it's still less than an HTPC , when coupled with the Bravo, and quite a bit more convenient too!


Marc.
 

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I have been using the DVI-to-VGA Conversion Box, and it works perfectly with the DVI output of the Bravo D1. It can convert all of the digital DVI signals (480p, 720p, 1080i, and 852x480) to an analog RGBHV signal.


The converter's RGBHV signal is much sharper than the player's YPbPr signal. The converter uses a 350 MHz DAC, which is comparable to the DAC on a high-quality PC graphics card.


During my tests, I made a couple of interesting findings.


1. The player's 1080i DVI output is truly 1080i (interlaced). It is not 540p (progressive) as some people seem to think.


2. The player's 852x480 DVI output has a vertical sync of 60.41 Hz, but the DVD standard specifies a vertical sync of 59.94 Hz. This difference implies that the 852x480 signal repeats a frame every 2.1 seconds (i.e., 1 / (60.41 Hz - 59.94 Hz) = 2.1 seconds). In other words, the video pauses for about 1/60th of a second, and this pause happens once every 2.1 seconds. I have visually confirmed this glitch by watching the "Numbers" sequence on the Microsoft Test Annex DVD. Note: This glitch does not happen on 480p, 720p, and 1080i because they have a vertical sync of 59.94 Hz.
 

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Here is a connection diagram:
Code:
Code:
Bravo D1                      Gefen DVI-to-VGA                      Display
 ____________                    ________________                   ______________
|            |  (digital RGB)   |                |  (analog RGB)   |              |
|     DVI out|----------------->|DVI in   VGA out|---------------->|VGA in        |
|____________|                  |________________|                 |______________|
 

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That's very interesting Erik. Either the Gefen has a HDCP compliant

input and is violating the "rules" by converting the signal to VGA, or

the Bravo D1 is not outputing DVI/HDCP, just DVI. It could be that

the D1 only does DVI/HDCP for "protected" DVDs. Have you tried

it with a Macrovision protected DVD?


larry
 

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The Bravo is not outputting HDCP. That's why people can use the D1 with their non-HDCP equipped displays. This is a huge postive for this player. The upcoming Samsung will not do this.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by santellavision
The Bravo is not outputting HDCP. That's why people can use the D1 with their non-HDCP equipped displays. This is a huge postive for this player. The upcoming Samsung will not do this.
This is interesting. It looks like all of the speculation about the DVD forum requiring a protected output for scaled DVD output was wrong.


I wonder if the Samsung HD-931 really will require HDCP support. Given that the HD-1000 can be "fixed" to have scaled component outputs, and the Bravo can output scaled video on component and DVI maybe the manufacturers have decided that they don't need HDCP protection.


-phil
 

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Unless they suddenly change their minds, I have been told repeatedly by contacts at Samsung that the DVI output on the HD931 will have HDCP.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by PhilB
This is interesting. It looks like all of the speculation about the DVD forum requiring a protected output for scaled DVD output was wrong.
No, the CSS license is very clear on this point, and V, Inc. is in violation of the DVD CCA CSS contract not applying HDCP to the DVI output for CSS protected video (per section 6.2.1.2) and for allowing greater than 480p output for NTSC CSS protected video (per section 6.2.1.1). Legally, they can't call the D1 a DVD player and they could lose their license (or affiliate license, if that's the case) to manufacturer DVD players for doing so. Trust me, the situation will either fix itself or someone will fix it.


In you're interested, the CSS Procedural Specifications are freely available for download:

http://www.dvdcca.org/css/application_proc.html
Quote:
Originally posted by PhilB
I wonder if the Samsung HD-931 really will require HDCP support.
Samsung is too close to the DVD Forum to risk something stupid like what V did. Small manufacturers can sometimes fly under the radar (how do you think Meridian offers an SDI output option for its DVD player, when SDI output is not allowed?), but big players tend to play by the rules.
 

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Thnx Guys, seems, i am in BUISNESS, Can I use this DVI to VGA? with my PIONEER ELITE pro 710, rear Proj HDTV, that has a VGA input, I am currently, using with my RCA HDTV tuner!!?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik Garci

Note: This glitch does not happen on 480p, 720p, and 1080i because they have a vertical sync of 59.94 Hz.
During some further testing, I discovered that 720p actually has a vertical sync of 60.00 Hz, not 59.94 Hz. So the glitch happens on 720p once every 16.7 seconds, i.e., 1 / (60.00 Hz - 59.94 Hz) = 16.7 seconds. I have also confirmed that 480p and 1080i have the proper vertical sync of 59.94 Hz.
 

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Erik,


Can you please elaborate on this "glitch". I have not seen any other references to this problem in other Bravo posts. So it makes me wonder if the Gefen DVI-VGA converter is causing it. I am considering buying one of these converters so I can use it with a Momitsu V880 DVD player (very similar to the Bravo).


Graham
 

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Hi!! Eric!!How can u describe, video performance of bravo, with dvi to vga convertor? are u using, rptv or dlp projector?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Graham B

Can you please elaborate on this "glitch". I have not seen any other references to this problem in other Bravo posts. So it makes me wonder if the Gefen DVI-VGA converter is causing it. I am considering buying one of these converters so I can use it with a Momitsu V880 DVD player (very similar to the Bravo).
I have seen the glitch on the 720p YPbPr output also, so it is not caused by the DVI-to-VGA converter.


On film-originated material, the glitch is very difficult to notice. On video-originated material, it is much easier to notice. On the "Numbers" test sequence, it is obvious.


In addition to using the Bravo D1, I have been using the Momitsu V880. One of the benefits of the V880 over the Bravo is that its DVI-I output provides not only a digital RGB signal but also an analog RGB signal. So you don't need to use the $400 DVI-to-VGA converter with the V880. I simply use a passive DVI-to-VGA adapter which costs less than $10. Although the V880's analog RGB output offers slightly less horizontal sharpness than the DVI-to-VGA converter's analog RGB output, I cannot tell the difference between them on my projector once it is properly calibrated. By comparison, the V880's YPbPr output has much less horizontal sharpness. The only problem with the V880's analog RGB output is some discoloration along the right edge of the picture, which is hidden by overscan on some displays.


By the way, the V880 has the same glitch on 720p as the Bravo does. Here is a list of the vertical sync for all signals.


Momitsu V880:

59.94 Hz for 480p

60.00 Hz for 720p

59.94 Hz for 1080i

62.40 Hz for DVI 768

62.40 Hz for DVI 1024


Bravo D1:

59.94 Hz for 480p

60.00 Hz for 720p

59.94 Hz for 1080i

60.41 Hz for DVI Gateway (852x480)


The glitch happens on any signal that is not 59.94 Hz.
 

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Well Erik, you've answered the question I was about to ask. Does the Gefen DVI-VGA converter work with the Momitsu? Apparently so according to your tests. This surprises me given that the Momitsu manual (and their tech support) claim that the DVI out has HDCP. The Gefen box doesn't support HDCP.


Graham
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Graham B

Well Erik, you've answered the question I was about to ask. Does the Gefen DVI-VGA converter work with the Momitsu? Apparently so according to your tests.
The Gefen DVI-to-VGA converter does indeed work with the Momitsu V880.
Quote:
This surprises me given that the Momitsu manual (and their tech support) claim that the DVI out has HDCP. The Gefen box doesn't support HDCP.
I have not seen any mention of HDCP in the instruction manual for the V880. Where exactly do you see it mentioned? It seems that the V880 never uses HDCP.


I strongly suspect that the Gefen box cannot decrypt HDCP, but I have not confirmed as such.
 

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Well, ERic, how are the RESULTS? 480P, component or VGA, vs 480P, from DVI to VGA convertor and 720P, any screen shots?
 
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