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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
While I love my X1, I wish it had a DVI input. The reason is the new DVI DVD players that broadcast DVD at HDTV resolution. I know that this isn't really HDTV, but I have heard these do a remarkable job making the DVD look much better.


I know the X1 is capable of HDTV resolution, and it looks excellent, but I don't think there is a way to convert the DVI of these new players to component and get it into the X1.


While the X1 does a great job with DVD, HDTV kind of spoiled things for me. If I could use one of these new DVI DVD players I bet it would look fantastic.
 

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There is another thread which occurred recently which discusses a similar topic. Before reading it, I would have said you can't get DVI into the X1 but someone in the other thread talked about DVI analog, digital, and combination connectors. Additionally, they indicated it may be possible to get a DVI-A (analog signal) into your X1 but I'm not sure that gets you anything. Plus, I don't know if any DVI DVD players will output DVI-A. (Finally, I think the conclusion of the other thread was to give up on that idea).


I think the concensus in this forum is that the X1 has a top-notch de-interlacer and scaler so it should produce a great image for most sources. So, if you don't like your DVD signal, I have to wonder if a better DVD player might provide an improvement. (You didn't indicate what you're using now).


There seems to be a DVD or two referenced in here that upscales to a 1080i signal. This might also be an option -- as you suggested.


In general, I'd try researching DVD's and/or demoing a couple of better models from a local electronics store to see if your picture can be improved. If you have a progressive DVD player, try interlaced. If you have interlaced, try progressive. There are several options which may provide some improvement.


gp
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by GreggPenn
I think the concensus in this forum is that the X1 has a top-notch de-interlacer and scaler so it should produce a great image for most sources. So, if you don't like your DVD signal, I have to wonder if a better DVD player might provide an improvement. (You didn't indicate what you're using now).
There is nothing wrong with my DVD player. But the fact remains it is 480P and HDTV is 1080i or 720P. Any DVD player is going to look worse when compared to HDTV, especially good HDTV. And I don't care how good the X1 de-interlacer is, it is only doing 480P, which ain't HDTV resolution.


The reason I brought this all up was because John Dvorak in PC Mag said these new DVI DVD players use "line-doubling technology" that let you watch DVD in HDTV resolution, and "it looks absolutely stunning." But all these type of DVD players use DVI digital output for the higher resolutions. If you connect via component, you get standard DVD 480P resolution. Since my projector is certainly capable of HDTV resolution, it would be nice to somehow get the pseudo DVD/HDTV into my projector. I bet it would look fantastic and really breath life into the DVD format.


I bet they could make DVD players that output this pseudo HDTV resolution via the component output, but they probably won't.
 

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You would have to upgrade projectors to get what you want. One with a DVI input.


One projector not mentioned a lot, but could possibly work great is the Infocus LP70 as an upgrade from the X1. It has a DVI input, is XGA, and not SVGA and costs around $2,200 or so... It does have a 2X color wheel like the X1, and has pretty similar contrast ratios. It does not have component inputs though and no Farouda Chip, I believe. Just a Thought....


We purchased one at work and I think the picture quality is great! I have the X1 at home. Shorter bulb life though around 2,000 hours or so compared to the X1 which has about 4,000 hours or so...
 

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You might try over at the DVD forum. I seem to remember a player that could be hacked or modded to output 1080i (upscaled obviously) over component output. It was a small manufacturer, and I don't know if any are still being sold...


I, too, have an excellent progressive DVD player, but have gotten spoiled on HDTV. Since the picture on the X1 is 800x450 pixels in either case, I have to admit I don't understand how they can look different!


Good luck,


Dave
 

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the Momitsu DVD Player upscales to 720P and 1080i with Component and DVI-Analog. All you need for DVI to work with this player and the X1 is a DVI-VGA cable adapter. A trans-coder is NOT needed. (I'm assuming the X1 has a VGA input)


I've heard some good things about Component at 720P as well.
 

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Your projector scales from external sources to it's internal format. For widescreen viewing, your X1 displays the picture as 800x450. Native DVD is 720x480.


If you get a DVD player that scales (doubles) from 480 up to 1080, it has to come back down for the X1 (to 450)! Do you really think that's going to help? I'm 99% sure that line doubling is done by the scaler. And, when an exact doubling doesn't apply, it's simply referred to as scaling. This means you're looking for a DVD player to do the line doubling (scaling) that your X1 already does. Does this sound fruitful?


I still think any improvement you're seeing on HDTV is related to the quality of the input signal and/or the path it takes into your projector.


Interestingly enough, your 1080i input signal must be deinterlaced before it can be displayed by the projector (because digital projectors display progressive signals). When you feed a progressive DVD signal, the Farouda de-interlacer in the X1 should be bypassed! If you are feeding a good progressive DVD signal, it really SHOULD be better than something that has to be de-interlaced before display (no matter how good the Farouda is). If a progressive signal isn't better, then you have to conclude that the signal is not up to stuff, or the Farouda de-interlacer actually improves the image, or the X1 scales better from 1080 to 450 than from 480 to 450. You can NOT conclude that the extra resolution really provides something visually.


If you really don't think your DVD is a problem and you really want to eliminate any processing the projector does to your signal, why don't you investigate 1:1 pixel mapping with a HTPC -- sent through your VGA port?


gp
 

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The scalers inside of DVI-equipped DVD players do not do any better job than the one inside the X1, especially for NTSC sources which are not vertically scaled at all by the X1. When outputting HDTV, the Bravo D1 or Samsung 931 would first upscale the post-deinterlaced 480p content to 720p or 1080i, then the X1 would need to downscale it back to square-pixel 480p. This double scaling is unnecessary and will lead to image degradation. Therefore, using the HDTV output from these DVD players makes no sense with the X1.
 

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Quote:
I still think any improvement you're seeing on HDTV is related to the quality of the input signal and/or the path it takes into your projector.
What about DVI? The DVI signal is about as pure as you can get. If you get a DVD player that upscales through DVI you will see a difference. I've seen it myself. Not on the X1 mind you, but on the HT1000. The difference between Component 480P and DVI 720P was like night and day.
 

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This double scaling is unnecessary and will lead to image degradation. Therefore, using the HDTV output from these DVD players makes no sense with the X1.
What about with an XGA PJ like the LT240K or HT1000? I've seen it on the HT1000 and the difference was amazing!
 

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I concur with GP that by the time X1 outputs the signal after the additional conversions, the PQ difference would not be nearly as noticeable as feeding 720P or 1080i via DVI-D into a DVI capable pj.


But hey, if someone wants to try it, we'll be eagerly waiting for your report.
 

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Quote:
the Bravo D1 or Samsung 931 would first upscale the post-deinterlaced 480p content to 720p or 1080i, then the X1 would need to downscale it back to square-pixel 480p.
BTW, you can get these players to send the DVI signal in the native resolution of the PJ. For example, the DVI signal can be sent to the HT1000 in 1024 x 768. One less scaling process to be done.


EDIT: Couldn't the Momitsu send the DVI signal (Through VGA) to the X1 at SVGA? Wouldn't that save it a step.
 

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Let's just accept the fact as good as the X1 is, it just doesn't have the necessary features to take advantage of these up-converted signals. I guess there is a reason why these other pjs cost more ...
 

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I just checked the Momitsu, it can send out the DVI signal through VGA (RGB) at XGA and WXGA but there was no mention of SVGA. Bravo might be the same.


The LT240K and HT1000 will really benifit from this. I can't wait to see it in action with the 240K myself.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by rickster904
Let's just accept the fact as good as the X1 is, it just doesn't have the necessary features to take advantage of these up-converted signals. I guess there is a reason why these other pjs cost more ...
During any scaling process you lose information and resolution. There is no good reason to "up-convert" if you have a projector that can display the native resolution as the X1 can with NTSC DVDs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Everyone is speculating that it would not be worth the effort, but I would like to hear from someone who has actually tried the Momitsu sending HDTV resolution to the X1 via component to VGA. I still think it might be much better than standard DVD resolution.


Someone was mentioning something about XGA but no SVGA from the Momitsu, but I think this doesn't matter if the Momitsu is sending HDTV resolution, the X1 should be able to display it.


So anyone actually connect the Momitsu to an X1? Somebody here must be able to test this combo. Does it work? And more important, do the DVDs look better?
 

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I agree. Until someone tests it firsthand they shouldn't assume that it won't be worth it. I'll be testing the Momitsu with the LT240K in a few weeks. I'll see if anyone in the Ottawa HT Group has an X1.
 

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Bob Williams gave some reasoning from an Infocus engineer's perspective. I don't think we should categorize that as speculation.


Like I said, if someone wants to try it, go right ahead. Most people didn't try it probably because they don't think it's worth it. If you're a believer, may be you should try ...
 

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I'm sure Bob knows exactly what he's talking about. It's just the thought of a DVD player in the $200.00 range that can upscale through a DVI-VGA cable. Possibly in the native resolution of the projector.


Surely it's worth a glance?
 
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