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Hey Guys,

I may have posted this before.
You guys were talking about movie soundtracks and maybe overdriving your speakers.

This is not from a soundtrack but a live album. It is Hugh Masekela's "Hope" album. It was recorded in 1992 or 93 at the Blues Alley in Washington, DC. The track in question is the last on the album; it is called "Stimuli (the Coal Train)". It lasts about 10 minutes and is probably one of the most dynamic recordings I've ever heard.
I start it out at about 68-70dB's and it goes to 102dB. This happens about three times during the course of the song. There is some drumming that is mainly toms and bass drums that keep building, and building, and building, until you think that they can't get any louder, and they build again.

I have overdriven both C1's and C2's with this track. Pop!
But I have never been able to "pop" my Special 25's. That 8" Evidence driver is so robust.
And no it is not clipping (I have 400W mono-blocks).

Borderdog
I've heard this track on both digital and analog, it super pops on analog even more than on digital
Dave Holland’s album “Prime Directive” did this on a few tracks with my Contour 1.3MKIIS… “POP POP”………with the 25s no problem.

Just to be safe and to give me more or less a full range presentation and lots of headroom I do have the 25s crossed over with a Velodyne DD12.
 

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Hey guys, we have just bought a pair of Xeo 4s and currently trying to figure out where to place them in our living room. As you can see the room is quite narrow. Don't mind the black wall unit on the left, we've just removed. Frankly there isn't much we can do with a space such as ours, so we thought either to place them where the black cabinets used to be or next to the columns on each side. Any suggestion will be appreciated.
 

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Hi people.

Recently I posted about the option to buy a Dynaudio Sub500. ..............

Is this really a matter of tweaking parameters, or more a problem with placement? When crawling the floor with the Adam sub in my lisening position, I got the loudest deep bass (and best overall sound) in the corner the sub is now in.

What can I do to further improve the smoothness of the ultra low end (apart from purpose-designing a room for it
)?

I'd like to hear from you sub woofer users! Thanks!

James.


Hi James

First, remember the cut off is gradual and not a brick wall approach above and below the cutoff frequency, I don’t have the 500 but have always found 80Hz just about right for the crossover point between the mains and most subs, 60HZ may be fine for true full range speakers.
With a visual display one can see even with a crossover at 80Hs the 25s still produced a fair amount of bass down to 30HZ. (see my old post below)

As your finding, bass frequencies are hard to manage and unpredictable with room nodes creating peaks and valleys, doubling and cancellations and getting a smooth interface between the sub at the crossover point with the mains takes time if not impossible without some sort of visual bass management.
Thankfully it has all become a lot easier over the last decade with the advent of home theatre and automated room correction and for those of us who are predominantly still 2 channel Velodyne’s SMS-1, which I previously used helped greatly in mating the 25s with the sub, currently I’m using a Velodyne DD12 which has basically the SMS-1 built in.
But without any visual feedback one has to depend solely by ear (not a bad thing actually) doing trial and error.
I usually start with acoustic recordings and slowly increase the volume on the sub until I feel the bass instruments are complete, then try a different phase (if available) and placement for body and extension. What we perceive as impact when listening to music, not home theatre, is actually created by proper placement of the mains and their integration with the room, get them right and it makes adding a sub that much better so that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
There are a lot of different schools of thought for adding a sub, crossover, no crossover, hi, low, corner placement, aligned with mains, etc, etc, so again trial and error, but in the end the sub should allow the mains to breath easily, increase dynamics and improve stage width and depth and of course complete the last octave of the bass.

Thought I’d post some results in equalizing the SP25s with and without the foam port plugs.
Setup is with the Velodyne SMS-1; these results are with the S25s cut off of at 80Hz 6dB/octave slope of the SMS-1 and a Velodyne SPL1500R sub.
The 25s are about 40" from the front wall.
Interestingly, even with the 80Hz cutoff the 25s still generate a fair bit of low frequency energy with the ports unplugged starting around 35Hz and rising around to 40Hz then dropping down to 80Hz and up again.
With the ports plugged we have a more traditional decline of base energy from the mains and actually may be preferred to allow better integration with the sub resulting in less over hang and booming of base frequencies.
Now these results are specific to my listening room and will be quite different for other users.
Which set up I prefer has yet to be determined as both setups, with or without the plugs interestingly produce similar graphic results when combined with the sub. There should be more base reinforcement without the plugs but this is not obvious from the graphs when the sub is engaged, whether or not this produces better or muddier base or how the rest of the audio spectrum is affected will have to be determined by trial and error.
This is my first time in using the plugs so I’ll leave them in place for a while and get back with my listening impressions.
Please note that the equalization in each photo affects the Velodyne SPL1500R sub only and not the 25S.
Also what I have not shown are the 25s playing full range.


without plugs 80Hz filter, sub muted


with plugs 80Hz 6dB filter, sub muted


80Hz 6dB with plugs and sub engaged


80Hz 6dB without plugs and sub engaged
 

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Hi people.

Recently I posted about the option to buy a Dynaudio Sub500. I wasn't sure whether I should pull the trigger on that one, or go the DIY-route, since I already had an elaborate (but complicated) design. For the asking price it seemed like a good deal, but I was able to pay even less. Given the state it's in (about three years old, seemingly very few working hours and looking practically new) it was an absolute steal. Needless to say, I bought it. And I love it! Together with my Special 25's, I can safely say that I have only once heard a setup that sounded more complete and coherent. I could probably make it even better with a better amp, but that's another story.

I do, however, have a few questions regarding placement and setup parameters of the Sub500. Especially to those who use it with Special 25's or similar monitors.
I currently have it positioned directly to the right and slightly behind my right speaker, due to room constraints. The driver faces inward, not towards me. The x-over on the sub 500 was set to full range, phase at 90 degrees. The crossover in my AVR was set to cross to the sub at 40Hz, the S25 running full range. This way, the sub will only work below 40Hz, unfortunately also heavily filtering LFE tracks. This works pretty well for most music tracks, resulting in some minor loss of perceived energy at around 40Hz with some music material. Setting up my AVR to cross over at 60Hz results in more bass-presence (no or less loss of energy around 40Hz), but also makes the bass sound somewhat sluggish or bloated. Turning the sub volume down helps somewhat, but then the extreme lows suffer from that. Even though my overall sound is great, I keep having problems getting seemless integration with a sub. My last two subs were B&W ASW610 and Adam Sub10mkII. Both had trouble integrating well.

Is this really a matter of tweaking parameters, or more a problem with placement? When crawling the floor with the Adam sub in my lisening position, I got the loudest deep bass (and best overall sound) in the corner the sub is now in.

What can I do to further improve the smoothness of the ultra low end (apart from purpose-designing a room for it :D )?

I'd like to hear from you sub woofer users! Thanks!

James.
Local shop here just received a trade in of a Sub500 for you that is in mint condition. Add another one!
 

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Hi people.

Recently I posted about the option to buy a Dynaudio Sub500. I wasn't sure whether I should pull the trigger on that one, or go the DIY-route, since I already had an elaborate (but complicated) design. For the asking price it seemed like a good deal, but I was able to pay even less. Given the state it's in (about three years old, seemingly very few working hours and looking practically new) it was an absolute steal. Needless to say, I bought it. And I love it! Together with my Special 25's, I can safely say that I have only once heard a setup that sounded more complete and coherent. I could probably make it even better with a better amp, but that's another story.

I do, however, have a few questions regarding placement and setup parameters of the Sub500. Especially to those who use it with Special 25's or similar monitors.
I currently have it positioned directly to the right and slightly behind my right speaker, due to room constraints. The driver faces inward, not towards me. The x-over on the sub 500 was set to full range, phase at 90 degrees. The crossover in my AVR was set to cross to the sub at 40Hz, the S25 running full range. This way, the sub will only work below 40Hz, unfortunately also heavily filtering LFE tracks. This works pretty well for most music tracks, resulting in some minor loss of perceived energy at around 40Hz with some music material. Setting up my AVR to cross over at 60Hz results in more bass-presence (no or less loss of energy around 40Hz), but also makes the bass sound somewhat sluggish or bloated. Turning the sub volume down helps somewhat, but then the extreme lows suffer from that. Even though my overall sound is great, I keep having problems getting seemless integration with a sub. My last two subs were B&W ASW610 and Adam Sub10mkII. Both had trouble integrating well.

Is this really a matter of tweaking parameters, or more a problem with placement? When crawling the floor with the Adam sub in my lisening position, I got the loudest deep bass (and best overall sound) in the corner the sub is now in.

What can I do to further improve the smoothness of the ultra low end (apart from purpose-designing a room for it :D )?

I'd like to hear from you sub woofer users! Thanks!

James.
The biggest problem is your room. Bass Traps will help immensely.
Also, are you sure your phase is set up correctly?
 

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Hi people.

.............
I do, however, have a few questions regarding placement and setup parameters of the Sub500. Especially to those who use it with Special 25's or similar monitors.
I currently have it positioned directly to the right and slightly behind my right speaker, due to room constraints. The driver faces inward, not towards me. The x-over on the sub 500 was set to full range, phase at 90 degrees. The crossover in my AVR was set to cross to the sub at 40Hz, the S25 running full range. This way, the sub will only work below 40Hz, unfortunately also heavily filtering LFE tracks. This works pretty well for most music tracks, resulting in some minor loss of perceived energy at around 40Hz with some music material. ................

What can I do to further improve the smoothness of the ultra low end (apart from purpose-designing a room for it :D )?

I'd like to hear from you sub woofer users! Thanks!

James.
The mains and the sub are subject to their own peaks and valleys, meaning they will occur at different frequencies and not mirror one another due to different room placement also both can be subjected to their own bass cancellations, this problem is compounded if having a lower crossover or in fact running the mains full range.
So although one may assume they have the phase set correctly with regards to the mains and the sub, what may happen, remembering that the crossover allows a fair amount of frequencies to be produced above and bellow the chosen crossover point, is the loss of bass energy, suckouts, at certain frequencies due to individual peaks and valleys from the sub and mains being out of phase, increasing or lowering the volume does not ameliorate the problem.
Although many may feel their mains can produce adequate lower bass, it’s best to allow the sub to do its job and the mains to do theirs; otherwise we have too many cooks in the kitchen. :)
The biggest pit fall when adding a sub, especially for music, is that many just assume they are just reinforcing the bass, when in fact what we ideally want to accomplish is for example is turning a two way speaker, if that is what we have, into a three way speaker.
Every room is different and due to the non-directional aural perception of bass frequencies, how they interact in all but the perfect room is unpredictable, I would start by increasing the crossover to 80Hz and work from there.
I mentioned previously that I incorporated Velodynes SMS-1 for bass management, and in my room with my system it has been a godsend, the DD12 has upped the anti and has been able to achieve, so far, the best mains and sub integration in my 25 plus years of using a subwoofer.
With home theatre currently being the prominent de facto for our aural entertainment, and where prodigious bass is almost the means to an end we often forget that the goal of music reproduction is, if I may use an almost forgotten phrase…”High Fidelity”.
 

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Special25s... still drool over those.
 

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Although many may feel their mains can produce adequate lower bass, it’s best to allow the sub to do its job and the mains to do theirs; otherwise we have too many cooks in the kitchen. :)
The biggest pit fall when adding a sub, especially for music, is that many just assume they are just reinforcing the bass, when in fact what we ideally want to accomplish is for example is turning a two way speaker, if that is what we have, into a three way speaker.
Agree. I spent many years with active and passive subwoofers and stand alone amplifiers and could never get a total blend. I spent money on active crossovers that let me adjust slope and more cutoff points than any receiver/amplifier offered and could still never get it right in my room. Numerous days of hours and hours of moving the sub around, tweaking, and getting aggravated (mind you, I have been tuning car audio systems for 20+ years with even more extensive crossover/DSP). In the end, I realized that I would never be happy with an external sub in my home, and a good set of floor standers was the answer for me. I have never looked back.
 

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Hey guys, we have just bought a pair of Xeo 4s and currently trying to figure out where to place them in our living room. As you can see the room is quite narrow. Don't mind the black wall unit on the left, we've just removed. Frankly there isn't much we can do with a space such as ours, so we thought either to place them where the black cabinets used to be or next to the columns on each side. Any suggestion will be appreciated.
As a compromise with the room (aesthetics, and where your couch faces), I would place them on the long wall where the black cabinets were. Space the same length apart as the difference to the listening area (couch).

I assume this is where your TV is now?
 

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I just had a chance to read that. Thanks. Good read.

Here are the questions I would ask the writer:

- Were these people versed in high end audio, or were they simply amateur listeners? I tend to believe a lot of people lean towards a warmer closed in sound until they "see the light". The sound that old receivers/amplifiers mostly have. Higher distortion levels smoothing out the sound.

- They seemed to be making a fuss over the fact that this two channel Pioneer receiver produced 275 wrms a channel, but never really mentioned that you can get close enough to not notice the power difference with a good receiver of today. I.E. - even most new Marantz receiver clear 200 wrms a channel at 4 ohms with 2 channels driven.

How do you feel about it, Garmin? I believe the perceived quality has diminished a tad over the years, but do believe technology and advancements have allowed amplifiers to sound better than the old, just engineered and built differently.

By the way, I received that SR7007 yesterday and I am pretty blown away so far. I bought from Crutchfield so I would have that great return option, but I can already say it won't be needed.

I was posting that link for kicks, two guys that write for different magazine wrote about that, I have a few older receivers laying around and I can say they don't sound better, different but not better. The SR7007 I was going to trade up too, but I might wait for the newer SR7009 that just got released but still too expensive. But my 7005 sounds completely fine right now, as I based it off of reviews I read and then actually listening to it, so not sure why you had issues with yours but ironically it runs my Dynaudio C2 without issues, but as I stated it is about 80% movies and 20% music. So maybe the newer units are better on music. On some brands of receivers the quality has diminished and others it has picked up, all depends on manufacture etc.. I use to love HK receivers, now not a big fan but I still have my 3490 (Stereo Only).

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7005-av-receiver tech radar gave it a 5/5 Crutchfield did and a few others. But I usually take that information with a grain of salt till I actually hear it.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-KlbtnvWvaV7/p_642SR7005/Marantz-SR7005.html
 

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No suggestions at all?

Hard to say based off that picture. If you had different bookshelves you might be able to place them right in front of the couch. Otherwise sqoverall suggestion is a good one.
 

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I was posting that link for kicks, two guys that write for different magazine wrote about that, I have a few older receivers laying around and I can say they don't sound better, different but not better. The SR7007 I was going to trade up too, but I might wait for the newer SR7009 that just got released but still too expensive. But my 7005 sounds completely fine right now, as I based it off of reviews I read and then actually listening to it, so not sure why you had issues with yours but ironically it runs my Dynaudio C2 without issues, but as I stated it is about 80% movies and 20% music. So maybe the newer units are better on music. On some brands of receivers the quality has diminished and others it has picked up, all depends on manufacture etc.. I use to love HK receivers, now not a big fan but I still have my 3490 (Stereo Only).

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7005-av-receiver tech radar gave it a 5/5 Crutchfield did and a few others. But I usually take that information with a grain of salt till I actually hear it.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-KlbtnvWvaV7/p_642SR7005/Marantz-SR7005.html
I'm sorry. I mis-spoke previously. I went back and looked at my records and I had the AV7005 (preamp). I remember at that time I had 5 Marantz MA700 mono blocks and was using the SR8002 as a preamp at the time to see if I could get better, or hear a difference, over just the receiver. Then I swapped to a few different preamps and the AV7005 is the one I had. Looking back, the MA700 mono blocks may have been my weak link (not knowing it at the time...and considering so many people still love them). After, that I realized my SR8002 was on par with that combo so I switched back. I did have an SR6006 for a short time 1.5 or so years ago and returned that.

I am sure the SR7005 sounds good, but quite a few reviews I have seen, after reading today, state the SR7007 improved a lot. Even Sound and Vision stated that they contemplated making the SR7007 their reference receiver.

I looked at the SR7009 too, but decided on the SR7007 for a few reasons. (1) The channel separation on the SR7007 smokes the SR7009 (actually horrible on the SR7009 IMO), (2) I don't need 9 channels (I run a 5 channel setup), and (3) the cost for more stuff I don't need.

I will tell you that the SR7007 surprised the heck out of me last night when I first sat down to listen (listened for a few hours last night, and a few more today). The stage depth improved. My stage height (center image mostly) went up a few inches it seems. The instrument separation is much better....and overall separation in general. It's more dynamic and has greater detail. It's also much much CLEANER and accurate. It is very accurate (I know I said that twice). It has a very smooth and airy sound, but with the proper amount of warmth when the material calls for it. This is proof that Marantz is really still working to improve SQ and the products they are releasing are actually getting better.
 

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sqoverall: At our store years ago we sold car audio as well, and I am a car audio guy, the problem is their is usually way too many variables involved in critical listening in a car, car noise/road noise kids yelling in the back etc.... etc.. I being sarcastic of course but I agree with you on receivers and when it comes to Pre/Amp/Processors with separate Amps, there are minimal gains when compared to a good receiver that's why I switched years ago from being a big buy separate guy (On home theater) to just using a receiver for my Home Theater needs. However a good pre/Amp Amp or Int. Amp for listening to music is a different story and I believe there are some good units out their that would compare to any good car setup. True controlled Super Clean listening in a Car Amp in a controlled environment of a show room is one thing but out on the open road is another. Now if we had a Tesla Motors car running on battery power with a ****load of Acousti|blok and Thermablok and a crapload of Dynamat then you would have a good controlled environment for critical listening. As many on here will say and I agree, making the room idea should be higher on most peoples list of things, then speakers and equipment. Now you seem highly knowledgable to be asking questions that you know most of the answers too! ;) :D
 

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Thanks for the article. I have always wondered this. I remember being a child and rocking to my dad's old system. I think he had a massive Pioneer integrated with a brush metal face. I think it blew anything I've heard in the last ten years.
Maybe, but there is no way you can listen to an amplifier as a child and be able to remember it's exact sonic signature to be able to determine if it sounds better than a current model, present day.
 

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@Garman/Sqoverall:

The TV is still where it was in the corner. The cabinet is gone now. The only thing's changed is that we've installed a huge floor-to ceiling mirror where the cabinet was. Is it a good idea to place speakers in front of a mirror?
 
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