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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, compared to the Panasonic DMR-E80H, this recorder is well worth the extra $125 extra. The features are much more numerous over the featureless E80H.


However, I've seen my old problems again.:mad: That being the purple bars and excessive brightness through the composite input. I have found a fix, if not just a bad default setting made by Pioneer.


The purple bars are directly contributed to the 3D Y/C circuit. SET IT TO MOTION!! Anything else will cause these bars. The motion setting doesn't have the bars.


Excessive brightness is much better than the DVR-310 and is completely acceptable. It's extremely hard to see the difference, but one notch below mid point in the black level setting equals the correct source black level. Now here's what I've been thinking, perhaps this really isn't off, but the players playback black level is a bit higher than my sources. I'll find out later when I do more testing and when I record from the S-Video input. Right I'm just testing the composite input.


Having some problem burning to a DVD though. Every time I dub to a DVD-RW, I finalize and it states it can not be read. Hopefully I find out why this is happening as this is the same DVD-RW that worked fine in the DVR-310.


Have a good one.
 

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Mike- I have finally actually observed what you have been claiming all along regarding the blue/purple vertical bars on an analog input signal with the 510! Strange, it is not very obvious at all, but it IS there. Odd thing is that it disappears when using the S-VHS IN (vs. the Composite Video In)


So, you were right all along I think and this is just the way it is with the Pioneers. Therefore, I will be using only S-VHS IN whenever possible. This pattern is not as noticeable to me using the Composite Video IN from my satellite receiver (as opposed to a VCR input) but I'll be sticking with SVHS IN's in any case.


Your work-around regarding setting the 3D Y/C circuit to MOTION did not seem to help much in my case. Again, it's a fairly minor thing but you were definitely right about it
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
zenith2525


Well I've done some more testing and I'm very happy. As far as the purple vertical bars, it's strange how this doesn't help you. I've actually watched them disappear as I switch it to motion.


You should never see this on the S-Video input as it's related to the 3D Y/C filter which is a luminance/chroma separator. Obviously, in the S-Video connection, the luminance and chroma are already separated, traveling on different conductors. Since this is a digital Y/C filter it looks as if it's adjustable for different video content: Motion for movies or Still for Kodak pictures or MP3/WMV menus. The middle selection was probably to obtain a good setting for all media.


I also got around to the S-Video recording and LP recording. S-Video doesn't track the sources black level perfectly either as it's a bit darker requiring on notch above the mid point in the black level setting. It looks like the mid point was best setting to give good black levels for both a composite and a S-Video connection. As I said this difference on both connectors is extremely small and isn't even noticeable right away without doing several switching back and forth between the recorder and the source. The playback is identical in level with my Panasonic DVD player, it looks good. To be fair, I really wasn't as critical with the E80H in black level testing. It looked good so I didn't look further. By contrast, the Pioneer DVR-310 was off by a very good margin requiring the black level setting to be adjusted all the way down and yet the colors and such were still off. The new 510 looks awesome.


The Pioneer DVR-310 had huge problems with it's composite output. It's black level was off, the colors/hue were close but not accurate to the original source, and there was a "VERY GOOD AMOUNT" of noise injected. NONE OF THAT WAS APPARENT ON THE DVR-510H! :D :D


Also, the DVR-310's LP recording mode looked awful with all kinds of digital artifacts. This DVR-510's LP mode is the equal or better to the E80H. It actually looks a touch better as having less artifacts. I'm really happy with it and it's faster dubbing time and faster overall functionality with finalizing and the such is very noticeable, much more than I would had thought. The auto start works good with my receiver although I do have the receivers on-screen menus turned off. I won't be using this as my DirecTivo doesn't have timers as conventional DirecTV receivers. It's timers are only for recording to it's hard drive. Since Tivo downloads video data to the hard drive during the middle of the night and very early in the morning, to record on the DVR-510s hard drive requires I record to the Tivo's hard drive as well or my movie may be Tivo commercials.:rolleyes: I like Tivo but it does have it's downfalls. BTW, the chasing play works great on my unit and is much less confusing than the Panasonic. I really like the design and use of this MUCH MUCH more than the Panasonic. It's less confusing and functions are actually labeled by what they do: Example Pioneer has "frame accurate" mode which records to the exact frame, Panasonic calls their function "DVD compatibility" mode which left me questioning what it really did. Theres more but I really like the Pioneer.:D


I did get another DVD-RW to burn, don't know what's wrong with the other one. Also, the fan noise on this DVR-510H is much quieter than the DVR-310, don't know why. I'm really thinking something was defective with the 310 being the 510 should have exact same performance. BTW, I haven't seen any digital artifacts resulting from the TBC as I did in the Panasonic. I have a month to audition this model to see if it does also. Hopefully it won't.


Well that's all for now until I find more or think of more to tell.


Have a good one.


P.S. I'd try again on changing the 3D Y/C setting as perhaps the setting didn't take the first time on your unit. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
zenith2525,


Reread your comments. I've seen purple bars in black backgrounds of VHS tapes. This is different, this is just noise that is related to VHS. That's probably why you notice less on your DBS. Try using a dead channel that's not used. Here in Chicago we have no ch. 4 so it gives a black screen which is great for testing purposes!:D


Have a good one.
 

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Around my town, the 510H is generally less expensive than the E80. That said, not many places carry either of them and few sold at Christmas. Still awaiting cheap brand recorders. There aren't any that I have noticed at any of the B'n'M stores, Wal-Mart (Canada), Sears, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I been watching for performance. I finally tested the same scenes that had the E80H showing artifact problems. Flesh tones do not show glimmering patches or banding(stripes) as did the E80H. Also the one scene that brightens up and then collapses did not have the bulls eye artifact, where it closes in when darkening and opens up on lightening. It did have a very VERY slight case of this, but more of a banding than bulls eye. It was so hard to see, I wasn't even sure if it was different. It was so hard to see, I had to keep switching with the source about 10 times before I could be convinced it was a very insignificant artifact. MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the panasonic. I now feel for sure that I have the best performing DVD recorder especially after reading problems that the Sony DVD recorder darkens the recorded video when compared to the source. I actually have downloaded pictures showing this from the person who sited this problem.


I'm totally convinced I now have the highest performing player (next to maybe a Philips if they are as good as I've read and if they don't break ). Also for the price, it has the best feature line up. I'm very, VERY happy with this unit. I just love how easy it is to edit. I just edited 4 movies, added 10 minute chapter intervals, and added title names in about 20 minutes. The HDD use of actual chapters is much easier and simpler when it comes to editing than the E80H. If I want to get rid of a chapter, I just combine 2, that's all! With the E80H, it used memory markers on the HDD and combined them up for ALL TITLES! To erase one, you had to count them. It was a total pain in the A**! I just love this 510!!


Also the black level seems to have corrected itself on the S-Video connection, mirroring the source. I did move the cables and perhaps some type of interference was causing this, or it just needed burn in time. Don't know but performance is AWESOME with a capital A!


Have a good one.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Doug O
Around my town, the 510H is generally less expensive than the E80. That said, not many places carry either of them and few sold at Christmas. Still awaiting cheap brand recorders. There aren't any that I have noticed at any of the B'n'M stores, Wal-Mart (Canada), Sears, etc.
Futureshop carries the 510H. I bought mine there during the boxing week sale for $900 including the $100 Pioneer rebate. That was $200 less than the 80H. Although I see now that the 510 is $1200 at FS and with no rebate.
 

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I got my 510 at Electronics Expo for $559 atfer days of searching for the best price. They even beat eBay pricewise. Doug
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Up
I now feel for sure that I have the best performing DVD recorder especially after reading problems that the Sony DVD recorder darkens the recorded video when compared to the source. I actually have downloaded pictures showing this from the person who sited this problem.


I'm totally convinced I now have the highest performing player (next to maybe a Philips if they are as good as I've read and if they don't break ).
I hate to tell you but the darkening on the GX7 is adjustable and it can even make broadcast dark scenes look better.


The GX7 has two video adjustments, one at the recording stage and one at the playback stage. It works beautifully!!!


I don't think you have the best recorder :p ;) :D


:cool:
 

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Well, it'd be interesting to see the 510 and the GX7 side by side and compare various recordings from the same sources. I see these two recorders as being the top two out there right now but the fact that the 510 had an 80gb hard drive and was essentially the same price made my decision. Very happy with the 510 but also will be very anxious to try out the Sony with hard drive this Fall.
 

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It's even harder for me to decide on a recorder now. For me, either would be the same price also. And I can't decide whetther the hard drive or the Sony PQ would be more worth having. I always get Sony in everything possible. When recording tv shows from my video tapes, I could fit 5 per dvd in SP with the Pioneer. With the Sony, I probably wouldnt want to keep pausing, so I would fit only 4 and I would have to leave commercials in. As far as the convenience of deleting old stuff on the HDD and recording over and over, that would be nice, but it would be "ok" using RW discs on the Sony. Just a little hassle to go find a disc when wanting to record instead of conveniently recording right onto the HDD. And I am sure I will want the Sony with HDD when it comes out either way. But i don't want to wait.


I wish some site ahd pictures from each recorder, thus making it obvious exactly how different a video tape transfer would look on each. ALl I know is sony has a much better video DAC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Quote:
I don't think you have the best recorder
Oh NO!!! It's the Sony users, run to the hills!! :D :p

Quote:
I hate to tell you but the darkening on the GX7 is adjustable and it can even make broadcast dark scenes look better.
I'll better you, the Pioneer has 3 adjustable presets plus it has 3 custom memory adjustments where all 3 A/V inputs and the RF tuner input can use a different one on each input!;) :D Beside the norm, there's also white level AGC(automatic contrast adjustment, but I don't use this), noise reduction(don't use either) and chroma adjustment. I leave everything to the default except the 3D Y/C filter that's used for RF and composite. I set it at motion because else wise, it adds noise artifacts. Besides these input recording adjustments, I also has the customary playback adjustments also with noise reductions for each component signal. :)


Besides, I'm a really snob when it comes to a recorder screwing with the original picture. It should be kept in the same state that was input, besides the encoding artifacts(and those should not be seen at Fine/XP or SP mode).


To be honest, just knowing the Sony changes the picture would not make me happy. Each to their own though. That's why I wasn't happy with the first DVR-310 I had. However it must have been defective or I had some type of interference as the 510 looks perfect, bettering the E80H by a good margin.


I'm glad your happy with your Sony as there can't be to much competition. Hopefully these DVD recorders will be as popular as DVD players. This will make it harder for broadcasters to flag their broadcasts and also help to bring hardware prices down, with media too.


Have a good one.
 

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I should make it my goal to take Mike Up's Sony bias away. :) I am not sure which of these 2 recorders to get, but I am guessing your vcr was just a case of you getting abad one from somewhere. My first Sony vcr was screwed up. I took it to get it fixed for a lot of money and then I think it messed up again or it was seeming like it was about to. So I bought another vcr and I decided to risk Sony again and it has been extremely perfect for years. I love it and my Wega tv, which you alwso said you don't like. :) Sony just has beetter picture and sound than other brands in most of their products.


I am still thinking I am going to buy this Pioneer though. I wish I could be sure whether or not to.
 

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As far as the Sony changing the picture, what if the picture was better to begin with when played through the Sony though? That is the thing I am most worried about. I am worried my video tapes and cable channels will look worse through the Pioneer than they currently look through my Sony vcr.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
When it comes to A/V, I'm a purist. With my audio, I don't want anything messing with the audio, no DSPs, no tone controls, no equalizers, no MCACC, nothing. I want the original, the way it was intended. The same goes for the video. If something was mastered a certain way, it was done that way for a reason. Who am I to think I can do better than a recording engineer or the director's vision.


Also a good sign of high performance and quality is the electronic's ability not to change the signal from it's original form. It should behave as passive as possible. This is the reason why digital audio is preferable and why recording CD tracks digitally, over analog, is the preferred method. With a very high quality CD recorder that has excellent analog circuits, this isn't such a problem but with lesser recorders it is. My HK CDR20 has been tested to have some of the best analog circuits to maintain the original signals, over many others tested in it's class. I expect my DVD recorder to have the same high performance especially since I have no way to record a digital video signal or a digital audio signal. Keeping the signals in their original form is the best way IMO.


BTW, I'm not totally biased, I love Sony's Minidisc recorders. I think they offer some very good lossy encoding and playback is very good. Of course, it's lossy and is why I now have moved on to CD recording. However, Minidisc is the best for editing and ease of use. I really wish minidisc would have caught on but Sony killed that format from lack of advertising and promotions. They'll most likely do the same to SACD judging from their current actions.


All in all, DVD recorders are the highest performing video recorders next to S-VHS VCRs(and the new D-VHS recorders). Either being better based on that formats models. However DVD has the advantages of a Disc format with it's conveniences, low media expense, and much higher compatibility with DVD-/+R discs. I believe this Pioneer DVR-510 records a better picture than my JVC S-VHS VCR, but the Panasonic DMR-E80H did not.


My bias against Sony most likely wouldn't be so strong if they actually priced their products by quality offered and not name recognition. The Sony DVD recorder being a good MSRP $450 recorder since it lacks many functions of the other recorders and performance being questionable if it's worse than the lower price competition. The same goes with their TVs, they're just to expensive and offer to little in the line of performance compared with their higher performing competition. They do offer nice feature except that crappy DRC processing which adds way to many digital artifacts to even be usable. Once that DRC is turned to it's minimum setting, only then does the picture become acceptable. My buddy had just bought a brand new Sony KV-40XBR800 (that being the world's largest tube television and Sony's flagship tube XBR) and was ready to take it back over the poor picture. His 68 year old father even noticed the degrading artifacts and made negatives comments to him over it. He called me over to see if it could be fixed before sending it back. After we turned the DRC to min., was it better. This feature shouldn't even be offered, let alone, defaulted to such a poor setting. Well anyhow, that was our opinions on this Sony flagship set.


Have a good one.
 

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... just make sure everything's calibrated, equipment, power, and the environment. Now if we only could just as easily calibrate our ears and eyes ...
 

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Hey MikeUp have you tried a comparison on the Pioneer DVR-510h between s-video and composite and component? How is the picture quality between the three? Which is better?


I have only used composite and i am pretty happy with it so far.

I am recording from analog cable box too since i dont have digital cable yet. Are you recording from digital cable or satellite?

I purchased the Pioneer DVR-510h a month ago and it is the best recorder for the money out there for now.


Thanks.
 

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I was not saying maybe the Sony makes the picture better by darkening it. I was saying ehat if the source itself was clsoer to its original form just by it playing "through" the sony even before it records. So I am basically saying what if the Pioneer makes it even further away from how it originally looked if its source were hooked directly to the tv.


I need to decide within 24 hours what I am going to do because I don't want to risk places selling out of this recorder when the rebate starts. Now I am less confident about what to do because I assumed dvd was the best quality. I didn't know s-vhs and other formats can do better! Movies on commercial dvds is the ebst quality of movies. So i justa ssumed the dvd recorder companies were not ripping people off and that it was the same quality as commercial dvds. Now I wonder if there is even a point to buying one. The discs evidently wont even last a lifetime like people had claimed. So why even transfer stuff to make them last less than vhs tapes?
 

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I am pretty sure I will. I can just picture everything going wrong though. Company won't take it abck if I don't like it. If I try it from somewehre else first, it may sell out or price go up at the cheaper stores. What if i spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars and these dvds stop working after 1 year? Most only have a 1 year warranty. Maybe I should buy the fujifilm I saw that said lifetime warranty.
 
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