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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just listened to the new SACD by Earth Wind and Fire, "Open Your Eyes." The cover states its 4.0, but when I played it it was 5.1 PCM @ 176.4. In any event, I was thoroughly disappointed in the overall sound, and as far as I'm concerned, red book CDs well recorded can rival and/or surpassed SACD. Redbook just sounds more natural.
 

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I just listened to the new SACD by Earth Wind and Fire, "Open Your Eyes." The cover states its 4.0, but when I played it it was 5.1 PCM @ 176.4. In any event, I was thoroughly disappointed in the overall sound, and as far as I'm concerned, red book CDs well recorded can rival and/or surpassed SACD. Redbook just sounds more natural.
It probably is 4.0. A lot of old "remastered for surround" quad recordings are just the old quad recordings dropped into 5.1 with "empty" center and subwoofer channels. (The channels are there, and the receiver THINKS it is playing 5.1, but there is no sound from the two unused channels").

What you are identifying is probably not an SACD vs CD issue though. It is probably a crappy surround mix vs. a familiar and comfortable stereo mix. Beware of overgeneralization about it. My guess is that if you listened to a stereo SACD and regular CD of the same material (same mix, other variables removed) then you would not hear much difference. And just because one surround mix sucks does not necessarily imply that another would not be downright sublime.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
What you are identifying is probably not an SACD vs CD issue though. It is probably a crappy surround mix vs. a familiar and comfortable stereo mix. Beware of overgeneralization about it. My guess is that if you listened to a stereo SACD and regular CD of the same material (same mix, other variables removed) then you would not hear much difference. And just because one surround mix sucks does not necessarily imply that another would not be downright sublime.
I own a Bryston BDP-2, and have downloaded numerous albums from 192/24 on down; none sound better than well recorded redbook, just different. Again, redbook sounds more natural than the upsampling. :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
It probably is 4.0. A lot of old "remastered for surround" quad recordings are just the old quad recordings dropped into 5.1 with "empty" center and subwoofer channels. (The channels are there, and the receiver THINKS it is playing 5.1, but there is no sound from the two unused channels").

What's you are identifying is probably not an SACD vs CD issue though. It is probably a crappy surround mix vs. a familiar and comfortable stereo mix.
After a second listen, you are correct. It is a 4.0 mix showing 5.1 on the processor. Sounds a little hollow, but maybe I need to get use to the mix as you mentioned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
After a third listen and setting my front speakers to large, I like the mix although it's still somewhat lacking in bass. However, I have never heard the voices and instruments clearer than this release; almost like listening on one my BIC, Dual or Garrard turntable. :cool:
 

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I own a Bryston BDP-2, and have downloaded numerous albums from 192/24 on down; none sound better than well recorded redbook, just different. Again, redbook sounds more natural than the upsampling. :(
download some stuff from AIX records or 2L records. They are actually recorded in HiRes not recorded in CD res or lower like all of the other "HiRes" out there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The quad "experts" at QQ state it is a 4.0 production. They seem to like it, I've seen only good comments there on it.
Well now, I like it, too I had to reconfigure my processor by making the front mains large instead of small just to get adequate bass. Its still not that deep, but its adequate. And, its a very open and pristine sound. I've actually never heard this album sound better. Its a must purchase. :cool:
 

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Well now, I like it, too I had to reconfigure my processor by making the front mains large instead of small just to get adequate bass. Its still not that deep, but its adequate. And, its a very open and pristine sound. I've actually never heard this album sound better. Its a must purchase. :cool:
Recorded in the 70's, originally quad. It will lack lows, like the Jeff Beck SACD-Blow by Blow. I love that album, but as you say, a bit of tweaking is needed. With BxB, I once lowered all channels-increased volume and there was the bass.
I have reservations on SACD anyway but the titles produced on the format are just too good!
 

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Well now, I like it, too I had to reconfigure my processor by making the front mains large instead of small just to get adequate bass. Its still not that deep, but its adequate. And, its a very open and pristine sound. I've actually never heard this album sound better. Its a must purchase. :cool:
Trying to work out why setting front mains to "large" would increase bass output unless your sub is anemic or miscalibrated in the processor.

All that setting the front speakers to "large" should do on a 4.0 signal is prevent the lowest frequencies from going to the sub and instead send them to the fronts. So you are taking your sub OUT of the config...which really ought not reduce the bass response of a properly-calibrated system.

Not arguing your results - just trying to understand and wondering what other factors must be in play.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Trying to work out why setting front mains to "large" would increase bass output unless your sub is anemic or miscalibrated in the processor.

All that setting the front speakers to "large" should do on a 4.0 signal is prevent the lowest frequencies from going to the sub and instead send them to the fronts. So you are taking your sub OUT of the config...which really ought not reduce the bass response of a properly-calibrated system.

Not arguing your results - just trying to understand and wondering what other factors must be in play.
You were the one that said it was probably 4.0, and you were correct. So since its 4.0, that means no .1 for sub. Therefore, since all my speakers are set to small with an 80Hz crossover, I had to set the mains to large to get bass frequencies below 80Hz. My mains are [email protected] Does this makes sense? This is a hassle, and I probably won't be buying anymore quad releases.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Recorded in the 70's, originally quad. It will lack lows, like the Jeff Beck SACD-Blow by Blow. I love that album, but as you say, a bit of tweaking is needed. With BxB, I once lowered all channels-increased volume and there was the bass.
I have reservations on SACD anyway but the titles produced on the format are just too good!
I own Blow by Blow in SACD, and your assessment of it is quite accurate. There are some great sounding SACDs, however, I guess one has to take a risk to determine which ones are good. :(
 

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You were the one that said it was probably 4.0, and you were correct. So since its 4.0, that means no .1 for sub. Therefore, since all my speakers are set to small with an 80Hz crossover, I had to set the mains to large to get bass frequencies below 80Hz. My mains are [email protected] Does this makes sense? This is a hassle, and I probably won't be buying anymore quad releases.
The .1 in X.1 formats is for LFE, not "bass", as such. If your crossovers are set at 80Hz for the 4 speakers that are getting the music signal, everything below that crossover setting will still be redirected to your sub. There is very little .1 in music.

Cheers
 

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You were the one that said it was probably 4.0, and you were correct. So since its 4.0, that means no .1 for sub. Therefore, since all my speakers are set to small with an 80Hz crossover, I had to set the mains to large to get bass frequencies below 80Hz. My mains are [email protected] Does this makes sense? This is a hassle, and I probably won't be buying anymore quad releases.
That's not how it works.

There are two separate potential signal sources that can be routed to the sub.
1) The ".1" (LFE) channel. This goes to the sub always if you have one.
2) The low frequency information from the other speakers channel. IF and ONLY if the speaker is set to "small", then the lower-frequency information (as derived from the configured cross-over frequency) from these channels will be sent to the subwoofer.

So, in summary, here are all possible combinations of signal types and speaker types and what happens with the subwoofer:

A) x.1 Source signal, speakers set to "Large" = Only the .1 channel goes to subwoofer
B) x.1 Source signal, speakers set to "Small" = Both the .1 channel AND the lower-frequency signal components of the "small" speakers go to the sub
C) x.0 Source signal, speakers set to "Large" = Nothing goes to the sub - this is the ONLY case in which nothing goes to the sub.
D) x.0 Source signal, speakers set to "Small" = Only the lower-freqiency signal components of the "small" speakers go to the sub

You went from "D", where you WERE sending part of the signal to the sub to "C", where nothing is going to the sub at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The .1 in X.1 formats is for LFE, not "bass", as such. If your crossovers are set at 80Hz for the 4 speakers that are getting the music signal, everything below that crossover setting will still be redirected to your sub. There is very little .1 in music.

Cheers
You still have to have a .1 source I believe. I do not recall hearing the sub on with my speakers set to small. By the way, 99% of my SACDs are 5.1.
 

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You still have to have a .1 source I believe. I do not recall hearing the sub on with my speakers set to small. By the way, 99% of my SACDs are 5.1.
No, you do not need a .1 channel to have bass coming out of your sub. There is a much more detailed explanation, one post above yours, by LairdWilliams.

X.1 is pretty much a misnomer for most music discs!

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
No, you do not need a .1 channel to have bass coming out of your sub. There is a much more detailed explanation, one post above yours, by LairdWilliams.

X.1 is pretty much a misnomer for most music discs!

Cheers
Regardless, if your processor is configured to 7.1 or 5.1 with a crossover of 80Hz, you still need to set your mains and probably surrounds to large in order to play frequencies below 80Hz. I heard no bass from my sub in 4.0. And, I heard no bass from the mains until I set them to large. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
That's not how it works.

There are two separate potential signal sources that can be routed to the sub.
1) The ".1" (LFE) channel. This goes to the sub always if you have one.
2) The low frequency information from the other speakers channel. IF and ONLY if the speaker is set to "small", then the lower-frequency information (as derived from the configured cross-over frequency) from these channels will be sent to the subwoofer.

So, in summary, here are all possible combinations of signal types and speaker types and what happens with the subwoofer:

A) x.1 Source signal, speakers set to "Large" = Only the .1 channel goes to subwoofer
B) x.1 Source signal, speakers set to "Small" = Both the .1 channel AND the lower-frequency signal components of the "small" speakers go to the sub
C) x.0 Source signal, speakers set to "Large" = Nothing goes to the sub - this is the ONLY case in which nothing goes to the sub.
D) x.0 Source signal, speakers set to "Small" = Only the lower-freqiency signal components of the "small" speakers go to the sub

You went from "D", where you WERE sending part of the signal to the sub to "C", where nothing is going to the sub at all.
See post above. By the way, I'm in New Bern believe it or not. :D
 

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Regardless, if your processor is configured to 7.1 or 5.1 with a crossover of 80Hz, you still need to set your mains and probably surrounds to large in order to play frequencies below 80Hz. I heard no bass from my sub in 4.0. And, I heard no bass from the mains until I set them to large. ;)
Well, that's not how bass management works but as long as you are happy, who am I to say!

Cheers
 
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